coolhandjjl Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 I made some new measurements, took out the active crossover, and set the frequency sweep limits to 450Hz~20kHz. Today, I also used a different pre-amp, different power amp, and a different computer. Mic is still 1meter away, I can try to get a close reading later, gotta get back to other tasks. What's the theory of measuring right at the mouth to try to get an even graph, if I still need to do a graphic EQ boost of 10dB at 7680Hz, and 12dB at 15.5Hz for normal listening with this driver? Two graphs posted, 1/3 octave smoothening. The bottom one is just a zoomed-in version of the same sweep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolhandjjl Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 Yep, my Dayton EMM-6 mic has a calibration file that is loaded into the software where required. Just to compare, I have an AudioControl Graphic EQ with a spectrum analyzer and a dedicated mic. I also used it to read the Radian, and I get identical results that REW and the Dayton mic show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolhandjjl Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 I took Bob's and ALK's graphs and superimposed them over mine for comparison purposes, scaled correctly. (Hopefully Bob and ALK are okay with this, otherwise, I'll remove it.) All readings are at 1 meter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I took Bob's and ALK's graphs and superimposed them over mine for comparison prrposes, scaled correctly. (Hopefully Bob and ALK are okay with this, otherwise, I'll remove it.) Both mine and ALK's readings are at 1 meter, don't know about Bob's. My measurement is at 1 meter also. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Maybe best to use the 950 in a three-way. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/220368-horn-radian-950pb-4.html must register and login to view pics/plots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Maybe best to use the 950 in a three-way. That's an understatement. The folks that push these 2-way concepts apparently don't live with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Maybe best to use the 950 in a three-way. That's an understatement. The folks that push these 2-way concepts apparently don't live with them. I bought a pair of the Tecton single driver speakers years ago because of the rave reviews here. They were very coherent and imaged very well, exceptional, but no better than a pair of B&W800 series or Palladiums. I returned the Tectons beause the drawbacks of a single driver were not worth the benefits compared to a well designed pair of speakers. Are crossovers that bad or can I just not hear well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Hi All, I don't understand the vertical scale on most of these graphs. I get ALKs. 105 +/- 5db 1W at 1 meter. The others 80db? Why not use a cone driver? babadono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolhandjjl Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 I do know that performance characteristics of some drivers vary greatly as the SPL increases, but when is the last time anyone in a non-event setting ran their tweeter up to 105dBs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Coolhand, Ok so do not care about absolute level just frequency response and relative flatness. Gotcha, thanks. babadono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZombieWoof Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 but wouldn't one want a driver to be stable @105 ? over a driver that is not ? even if they both were never going to be pushed that far ? I was taught that with a horn & driver as a assembly that a flat graph was preferred over a graph that had dips &/or roll offs am I wrong here ? I;m not in any way a expert here , I just have to go by what I was taught . That graph from ALK was done at my request & expense & yes it was done after the fact that I had bought the B&C drivers I was double checking after the fact i'll admit , but that was to reafirm my guesses on the B&C 750 being a good choice for the Eliptrac-400 I was told it would be but no one had hard facts so I got the 750's & by chance ALK ended up with a pair . And he tested them along with the Crites 12 " woof & a new crossover (designed at request) for the 12" Crites woof matched with the Eliptrac-400/ B&C 750 combo and a sized cabinet like a CS-1.5 in total cubic volume Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolhandjjl Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 but wouldn't one want a driver to be stable @105 ? over a driver that is not ? even if they both were never going to be pushed that far ? Nothing wrong with your observations. My test were done somewhat quickly, I'm sure I have way too may variables in my methodology to be taken as gospel. Graphs from ALK and Crites are professionally created, mine are not. Also, I didn't have my hearing protection with me that day, so I really didin't want to push it to 105 or higher anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZombieWoof Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 what was the reason you chose the Radian ? Costs ? any way you paint them Eliptrac-400 yet ? mine are done & I/m Very very happy with the hammered look finish it's a dark charcoal with a slight metal flake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolhandjjl Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 They are smooth, but not final sanded yet. I also need to wait until the weather warms up to spray paint outside. The reason for the Radians? I did not initially plan on a two way. For future use, drivers that 'could' operate as a two way appealed to me, but not 100% necessary. Al at US Speaker told me that the Radian 950PB was his most popular driver, even for audiophile use. He stressed the aluminum diaphragm with mylar surround as being more pleasing than titanium for some people. I did some EQ boost during some tests, and got the response graph to level out. But for some reason, I just like my system as a three way, so I went back to that. There's just a little bit of extra snap or something, may it's placebo, who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZombieWoof Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 ALK had his belles as 3 way tried the B&C 750 as 3 way & added his switch to toggle between 2 way & 3way with the 750's installed , said he could not tell the difference between 2 way or 3 way at all . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 ...said he could not tell the difference between 2 way or 3 way at all . You aren't saying he is deaf are you? []I'm working on a two way now, but time will tell if I ever get it finished and how it sounds. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Understand that this is just my opinion. As Al K. once reminded me, "You're just one guy in one room." It's a great quote and equally applicable to all. We all hear differently and so have different subjective preferences. So, with that in mind, I will never, ever go back to anything that uses titanium diaphragms. Once you get dialed into the ringing, you can never NOT notice it. On a whim, I decided to try some Radian 5208C coaxials. They use a very stiff paper cone with their 450 PB 1" compression driver. Since the acoustic crossover is around 1800Hz and the midrange is being reproduced by the cone -- I can only comment on the treble -- which is remarkable. I've lived with just about all of the varieties in the Reference Series as well as the Jubilee. I would take those 950s, run them with the Beyma tweeter, and call it a day. Seriously. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolhandjjl Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 The main reason I was tinkering with two way configuration was that in the future, I'd like to build a tube amp, and if the tube amp drove everything from 400Hz~20kHz, I assummed that would cover the tubiness listening enjoyment, rather than having it just drive my current MF configuration from 400Hz ~ 6000Hz. I considered a three-way bi-amp system with MF and HF passively crossed, but the Radian is so efficient in the Eliptrac 400 horn, there's no tweeter that can keep up with it. Given that, there's no hope of running a steep slope network between it and a tweeter, as the networks that ALK designs to attenuate the MF is a gentle slope network. Right now, I am enjoying it as a three-way tri-amp system. The MF and HF mesh nicely together, dispersion seems matched (by ear), no noticeable lobing (by ear), or listening fatique. Here's a brief description of my drivers and amps with efficiencies listed as provided by the designers/manufacturers: 20~400Hz: Horn loaded bass bin+Eminence 3012LF x 2 (105dB). SAE 2401 350WPC ss amp into 4Ω /3V input sensitivity. 400Hz~6000kHz: Eliptrac 400+Radian 950PB w/aluminum diaphragm & mylar surround (111dB). SAE A201 100WPC ss amp into 8Ω/3V input sensitivity. 6kHz~20kHz: Selenium HC23/25+BMS 4552 w/mylar diaphragm (113dB). Carver PM300 100WPC ss amp into 8Ω/.775V input sensitivity. Crossover is a TDM 24CX-4 (Madisound private label version) configured as stereo 3-way. 24dB/octave Linkwitz-Riley style. Installed as they are, my active crossover has my LF and HF dialed to equal output levels, MF is dialed down a bunch (no dB scale available on its output setting). With different amps of different sensitivities, and different load impedences, it's hard to compare what is really going on with actual driver sensitivities vs true output. Based on the sensitivities I posted, you'd think the HF was the one to be attenuated, but I swapped the amps for my MF and HF during testing, and the MF always needs to be strongly attenuated at the crossover. In the future, if I ever do get that tube amp, I might consider swaping the mid driver for one of much lower sensitivity so it can be passively steep slope crossed with the tweeter, and go to a bi-amp, 3-way system. Something like the B&C DCM50 could fit the bill. But right now, it does sound mighty fine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 John Luke, So you are running that Radian driver down to 400Hz? No problem? I have ALK's ES400 and ES5800 crossovers in my modified KHorns and the squawker via taps on the autotransformer can be dialed down upwards of 10dB. Likewise the tweeter can be dialed down 10dB. I have Dave's Eliptrac horn but I am still using the stock K55 driver. I am itching to try one of these 2 inch drivers, but which one? B and C DCM50, Faital Pro HF200 or your choice the Radian 950PB? I believe no matter which I choose I will still stay 3 way (with the B and C you must). Looks like the cost to go to this party is between $600 and $1000, not insignificant and I hope to choose wisely. Are there other drivers to consider? babadono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolhandjjl Posted February 6, 2013 Author Share Posted February 6, 2013 So you are running that Radian driver down to 400Hz? No problem? I have ALK's ES400 and ES5800 crossovers in my modified KHorns and the squawker via taps on the autotransformer can be dialed down upwards of 10dB. Likewise the tweeter can be dialed down 10dB. I have Dave's Eliptrac horn but I am still using the stock K55 driver. I am itching to try one of these 2 inch drivers, but which one? B and C DCM50, Faital Pro HF200 or your choice the Radian 950PB? I believe no matter which I choose I will still stay 3 way..... 400Hz is where I am dialed in, handles it no problem. If I decide to swap out to the B&C DCM50's, and you decide on the Radians, let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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