The 3 Speakers of the Apocalypse

[LarryC]

Philip, you have an e-mail. Larry

[Fjd]

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I know there is a lot of negative talk about Greg's speakers and their lack of engineering/testing

It's the truth, a fact, negative or positive is how you take it. They could sound GREAT but it's still a fact it just very pretty high priced DIY.

I don't know the man and have no doubt they sound as described, but it does not change the facts.

 

Please keep in mind that Mike is referring to a specific upgrade and “blanket statements” may not be the best way to help the OP understand the pros and cons of the upgrade Mike is referencing. [ ]

 

I would agree that regarding the three choices the OP has outlined the engineering and test conditions generally lag behind the capabilities of JBL and Klipsch. However, in reference to the upgraded work that Mike is mentioning you have the initial engineering of Klipsch (i.e. Khorn box, driver parameters, etc.) along with many measurements of the BMS driver/tractrix horn combination taken, at various times for various agendas, by JWC, Al Klappenberger, Bob Crites and John Warren.

 

Crossover networks are of Al Klappenberger design for which he has several engineered models for different design goals.

 

Layer in that Greg is a true craftsman (i.e. somewhat fussy with tolerances and consistency) when it comes to building those tractrix horns (developed from the Bruce Edgar formulas) along with the initial demo-listening program where many heard the combination on their own Khorns, it seems that one could argue that many people could conclude that there was sufficient engineering for this upgrade and the results are very predictable.

 

I believe that the method to close the backs of Mike’s Khorns is consistent in keeping the proper flair of the bass horn.

 

Here are a few threads from a quick archeological dig through the ancient threads for the OP to evaluate that also have good comedy by some good old timers. [8-|]

 

 

The Trachorn 400 versus the V-Trac

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/105481-the-trachorn-400-versus-the-v-trac/

 

"V-Trac" Midrange Horn Upgrade for Khorns (the linked page is the first page where you can find JWC and Bob Crites measurements)

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/103574-v-trac-midrange-horn-upgrade-for-khorns/page-7?hl=v-trac

 

North Reading Engineering measurements

http://www.northreadingeng.com/KV1/KV1.html

 

v-trac demo impressions

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/105135-v-trac-demo-impressions/

 

Edit: updated links for the new forum upgrade

[Marvel]

Well said!

[dtel]

Please keep in mind that Mike is referring to a specific upgrade and “blanket statements” may not be the best way to help the OP understand the pros and cons of the upgrade Mike is referencing.

True, I didn't specify, sorry, I was not talking about the possible change of his Khorns and I should have made that clear. It was aimed to one of his first choices of a full design of Volti, I think they are beautiful, and probably do sound good.

Part of why I feel this way was a while back someone had a custom design and was asking questions about crossovers and possible driver changes or general upgrades, no one could help, not even the designer because they had no clue of much of anything except what the crossovers are set at and how it sounds, which made everything a guess, there was nothing to go on at all, they were pretty much own there own.

Honestly if anyone should have some work done to find out exactly whats going on for further recommendations to customers and newer designs it should be Volti, by far his woodworking skills deserve real testing to help get things off the ground and sell more, the cabinets are as good as any out there.

I have no problem with people designing and building horns or whole speakers, I think DIY is great, when it turns into a company with decent prices for builds there are certain things that people expect.

It's not that I have a problem with Greg or anyone building and selling horns or designs, you can not find a post by me that condemns this, want to design mid and high end speakers back up your product.

I'm done

[PrestonTom]

I think once someone has heard the Jubilee bass bin with a horn designed by Roy (K-510 or K-402 and the appropriate crossover), the decision is simple. Jubilees sound fantastic!. Not surprisingly, this is a result of good engineering. No surprise there...

Now, if you want to talk about cosmetics that is another topic. IMO, not a very interesting topic. No matter what you do to make a big cabinet pretty, your wife will still think they are too large and obtrusive. Your wife will not be swayed by fancy veneer. In 90% of the cases that is plain truth.

[Quiet_Hollow]

What sub do you think would marry well with the LS?

You mix on VerTec and you ask this question? I'm confused. [:^)]

[Fjd]

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Please keep in mind that Mike is referring to a specific upgrade and “blanket statements” may not be the best way to help the OP understand the pros and cons of the upgrade Mike is referencing.

True, I didn't specify, sorry, I was not talking about the possible change of his Khorns and I should have made that clear. It was aimed to one of his first choices of a full design of Volti, I think they are beautiful, and probably do sound good.

Part of why I feel this way was a while back someone had a custom design and was asking questions about crossovers and possible driver changes or general upgrades, no one could help, not even the designer because they had no clue of much of anything except what the crossovers are set at and how it sounds, which made everything a guess, there was nothing to go on at all, they were pretty much own there own.

Honestly if anyone should have some work done to find out exactly whats going on for further recommendations to customers and newer designs it should be Volti, by far his woodworking skills deserve real testing to help get things off the ground and sell more, the cabinets are as good as any out there.

I have no problem with people designing and building horns or whole speakers, I think DIY is great, when it turns into a company with decent prices for builds there are certain things that people expect.

It's not that I have a problem with Greg or anyone building and selling horns or designs, you can not find a post by me that condemns this, want to design mid and high end speakers back up your product.

I'm done

 

I don’t disagree in that there is a lot of misinformation on the forum that, to the casual reader, makes it seem easy to DIY or modify a speaker, drivers can be swapped for anything and you can set a crossover anywhere. I’m sure it does lead many astray into spending money unnecessarily and still not be happy with the results.

 

I can’t guess to know the OP’s requirements or why he picked these three speakers for this thread; however, from reading his posts in other threads, he seems to be involved in some level of a technical aspect in the studio/ pro-marketplace type of work and seems to be very familiar with pro gear and audio equipment in general and while he hasn’t made a decision yet, seems to be diligently gathering information from many perspectives. Or maybe poking fun, but only he knows. [:S]

 

I sensed that he had the experience to look past some of the misinformation (that I suspect annoy both of us) and wanted to give him something to read if he was truly interested in Khorn modifications, knowing that he had brought up the subject in the thread titled “Break Off Thread - Closed Back K-Horns?”

 

He also asked about “Ms. Belle vs. Mr. K-Horn.” Given that the JBL S4700 lists for $20,000 and he asks about the Palladium in another thread (titled “New vs. Old or Heritage vs. Palladium”), is a range around $20,000 his budget?

 

Even when thinking about all of the above and evaluating if I have something to contribute that he may find useful, I now have this picture in my mind that the “the Leader of the Opposition looking to be on the tour of homes” is fast typing away on a thread asking questions about the available colors of those “cute cube thingies” when the house becomes part of the tour. []

 

Regarding the Vittora’s, I believe that Greg is now targeting a different sand box than the one most of us play in these days and has done a lot to separate the initial DIY days from where he is now. I’ve read every forum thread from those days and have read many disparate views on the topic.

 

From what I have read more recently in other forums it seems that Greg has focused more on his strengths and contracted professional help to assist with other design and testing aspects. It appears that Kravchenko-Audio has assisted with the final design of the bass horn, while North Reading Engineering developed the current crossover network. I’ve already discussed the driver/horn combination here, which is also used with the North Reading Engineering crossover network.

 

http://www.kravchenko-audio.com/

 

http://www.northreadingeng.com/Networks.html

 

On a side note, I’ve listened extensively for over two years to a 1976 Klipschorn set up modified with a custom ALK crossover network with the V-trac horns, TAD 4001 mid drivers and TAD 703 high frequency tweeters, in addition to the BMS mid-driver/Beyma tweeter combination. For the last year, I’ve listened extensively to a set up using the DX-38 on Jubilee bass bins, K-402 horns and TAD 4002 mid drivers. [Y]

 

 

If $20,000 is the budget, should the OP just buy a new Jubilee complete with K-402 horns and a DX-38, then have Greg give it a cosmetic makeover? [H]

[Fjd]

For the last year, I’ve listened extensively to a set up using the DX-38 on Jubilee bass bins, K-402 horns and TAD 4002 mid drivers.

Calling Coytee.....I've heard the Jube and became a believer.......

[dtel]

My first suggestion was about the 60th Khorns was because of the closed backs, then thought it would be a good idea to have his redone with backs.

He said he really like the Khorns so I was trying to give him ideas to keep them. The problem I had was I never had Khorns and don't know if the 60th or finished backs and sides on his are enough to not have them in a corner, I would think you would still lose some bass. So my next thought LaScala, almost a Khorn less and different bass.

I know my choice but that's not for everyone which is easily understandable.

I figured he would have a better idea if that would work. When we were looking for better speakers years ago I was thinking Khorn, even have two perfect corners, actually the room was built with 2 good corners on purpose. We heard Khorns in at least 5 different rooms, they sounded really different in every room which turned me off to trying them. I was more confused after hearing them than before, so we kept looking.

Hope he reads all this and doesn't get in a rush and is happy in the end whatever he decides, didn't mean to get this sidetracked.

[philipbarrett]

You mix on VerTec and you ask this question? I'm confused.

Apples & oranges my friend. I can talk VerTec, L'Acoustics, d&b and Meyer all day long, but my knowledge of the domestic market is extremely limited. To my ears the Klipsch range does the best job of replicating the dynamics of a good live system at the house.

[philipbarrett]

he seems to be involved in some level of a technical aspect in the studio/ pro-marketplace type of work and seems to be very familiar with pro gear and audio equipment in general and while he hasnt made a decision yet, seems to be diligently gathering information from many perspectives. Or maybe poking fun, but only he knows.

Pretty much sums it up except for the poking fun part which couldn't be further from the truth. As I replied above, my knowledge of home equipment is very poor and I like this forum because I get great "real world" input from folks like y'all who have a strong grasp of the gear and the physics but are not easily swayed by the HiFi BS. Personal opinion from people you trust is a huge asset in our business where the only chance to really evaluate new products comes in front of a paying audience.

is a range around $20,000 his budget

Half that. I brought the JBLs into the mix (hahaha) because I can buy them through a dealer. I'd like to spend $10K, that's the price of a shipped pair of K-Horns from Hope & seemed like a good place to start.

the Leader of the Opposition looking to be on the tour of homes is fast typing away on a thread asking questions about the available colors of those cute cube thingies when the house becomes part of the tour.

I'll jump in to defend a lady who has been married to a sound engineer for half her life. She would actually happily sign off on whatever choice I make but one of the secrets of our long relationship is understanding and respecting each others' agendas.

And once again, thanks everyone for the input so far. I don't know if I'm any closer to a decision but I do have a lot more clarity around the subject.

[Deang]

Greg's webite nauseates me. He doesn't give credit to anyone. He doesn't give credit to Klipsch, Al, or any of the others that helped him develop these products. He would have you think they were develped in a vacuum with just his own genius at work. Rounding the back of a LaScala or Belle type speaker is nice, but it's still a PWK horn. The 2" Tractrix horn was developed by Al and Bill Martinelli. Greg got a shite-ton of help while building his first pair. I think the thread is like thirty pages long. I remember he mucked up the throat and had to go back and fill in what he had carved out. John Warren first suggested the use of the Beyma tweeter, but his preferred choice was the JBL 2404. I suppose it's possible that Al discovered it on his own and I have that wrong. The BMS was first used in coaxial form by Dana Moore years ago. When Greg asked me in a phone conversation if there was a suitable 2" drop-in replacement compression driver for the Klipschorn, I told him there were two that I knew about but that I would use the BMS.

Crossover networks are of Al Klappenberger design for which he has several engineered models for different design goals.

I don't believe that's true. Al terminated his business relationship with Greg and gave him a cease and desist order. He allowed him to build and sell the remaining kits he had bought, but that's it.

You don't need Greg. You can have Dave Harris build you a nicer horn, buy the mid-drivers direct from Assistance Audio, the Beyma tweeters from usspeaker, and have Al, Bob, or myself build you a proper crossover. You can do this for a hell of a lot less than $15K.

You can probably find a local cabinet shop to do the back of your Klipschorns. If there is one thing around here that doesn't involve rocket science, that would be it.

[colterphoto1]

I've struggled with the Jubilee, and everybody has told me that it REQUIRES to be loaded in a corner and even with the electronic 7db boost at 32 hz, does not go low enough to satisfy many Jubilee owners. Many of them have subwoofers hooked up as well. To me this really muddies the waters of a true full range horn loaded two-channel system. Even the enclosed backs on the Khorns will suffer a bit if not placed somewhat in the vicinity of the boundaries of a room.

Indeed all speakers will exhibit different LF characteristics depending on the room size and acoustic treatments. Nowhere in this thread has there been any discussion of the room size or dimensions, listening position, source material, other components in the chain, music tastes, preferred volume or any number of issues that would affect the choice of loudspeaker. For an investment of this size, I'd consider everything, not simply 'which of these speakers would you use?'

[Fjd]

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Crossover networks are of Al Klappenberger design for which he has several engineered models for different design goals.

I don't believe that's true. Al terminated his business relationship with Greg and gave him a cease and desist order. He allowed him to build and sell the remaining kits he had bought, but that's it.

 

My reference was intended to be specific to Mike's Khorns in that post as Al's univeral design was used. Actually, many of the threads I've pointed to in earlier posts and here may substantiate most of your ovbservations, I just wanted to leave my personal views and bias out of the thread. My point was that the mods on Mike's speakers have a level of engineering and acceptance no matter who performs the mods and many comments may come accross to that casual reader as bashing the guy's speakers (which I believe is inaccurate) and I'm trying to show why we have to be specific as we write.

 

John Warren's original JBL tweeter modification.

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/40135.aspx?PageIndex=1

John Warren suggests the Beyma CP25 and Al appears to take the first plunge.

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/p/15166/117718.aspx#117718

One of the earliest threads on AlK crossovers

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/31.aspx?PageIndex=1

Intro of the extreme-slope

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/32882/283412.aspx#283412

early reference to Bruce Edgar rectangular wood horn and the Martinelli wood horn for Klipsch.

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/24989.aspx?PageIndex=1

I suspect that people were altering Khorns long before any of the wood horn sellers here.

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/2.aspx?PageIndex=1

Klipsch article regarding Tractrix horn

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/p/44621/419962.aspx#419962

Al's first hint that he has a Tractrix horn for his kits

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/p/48158/455731.aspx#455731

Al introduces his first Tractrix horn for the Belle & Khorn (page 5 Al partners with Martinelli, first prototype on page 8)

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/51623.aspx?PageIndex=1

[colterphoto1]

So much common sense - thanks to all.

What sub do you think would marry well with the LS? Think tight & defined rather than "listen to my copy of Top Gun Blue-Ray" boom, flap, boom.

Incidentally I'm mixing this week on the baby JBL VerTec line array (4886) and the subs are phenomenal. JBL 4883 - dual 12" cardiod. I used the preset for their big, 2 x 18" sub and I'm loving the low end on these little babies.

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=304&MId=4

With all respect, the presets for a dual 18" cabinet would not employ the eq and phase corrections for a 12" cardiod sub system. I can't see how this would possibly work unless the 12" sub system has internal processing (is it self-powered, I'm not familiar with that model) Btw, the house system where I regularly mix is a LS9 console and perfectly matching and tuned EV system consisting of EV processor, dual 18" sub, 4x line array box per side.

In terms of the LS/Sub match made in heaven. My HT has LS in front set to SMALL, crossed over at 70 Hz to Klipsch THX subs, stacked, side facing, in a corner of the room. It's an immense, deep and very musical sub that works very well together. I listen to a lot of concert DVD's - Yes, Zep, Sabbath, Stones and they all shine on this system. Blowing stuff up is easy, hearing the individual NOTES on a Moog Taurus bass pedal is a thing of great beauty. If you've ever in the Indianapolis area I invite you over for a test drive. It's not fancy, nor terribly expensive but I love it. Cornwalls on the back wall set to LARGE and KLF-C7 (I know that's not supposed to work but it's seamless) round out my 5.1. I've been pleased for years with this set.

[Quiet_Hollow]

I like this forum because I get great "real world" input from folks like y'all who have a strong grasp of the gear and the physics but are not easily swayed by the HiFi BS. Personal opinion from people you trust is a huge asset in our business where the only chance to really evaluate new products comes in front of a paying audience.

I'm certain that's why many of us are here too. [Y]

When you said this:

What sub do you think would marry well with the LS? Think tight &
defined rather than "listen to my copy of Top Gun Blue-Ray" boom, flap,
boom.

Was that in reference to this?

From what I've experienced subwoofer-wise, the following get my pick to accompany the La Scala (no flab here):

- Danley DTS-20, DTS-10, or SPUD

- JTR Orbit Shifter LF

- Bill Fitzmaurice Tuba HT

- TRW-17 (in AE installs)

[philipbarrett]

With all respect, the presets for a dual 18" cabinet would not employ the eq and phase corrections for a 12" cardiod sub system.

Sure sounded better though!

[philipbarrett]

Was that in reference to this?

No but that's funny. It's a little private joke. Remember when CDs first came out and people invited you over to listen to their new player they would always pull out Dire Straits' Brothers in Arms for the demo? I've noticed anytime someone wants you to hear their HT system they pull out Top Gun!

[Fjd]

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“the Leader of the Opposition looking to be on the tour of homes” is fast typing away on a thread asking questions about the available colors of those “cute cube thingies” when the house becomes part of the tour.

I'll jump in to defend a lady who has been married to a sound engineer for half her life. She would actually happily sign off on whatever choice I make but one of the secrets of our long relationship is understanding and respecting each others' agendas.

 

My thought was that since you are an engineer, that is why I thought the comment would be funny.

 

Also, I've tried to be careful with my choice of words, so please don't take my responses to "dtel" out of context. I've read many of dtel's posts over the years and come away with the impression he is one of the most friendly and respectful people you will find on the forum. The kind of guy that would take you home and feed you if he found you down on your luck (even if he personally didn't like the person that much).

 

I've read a piece by Kurland a while back on how it is difficult to understand the author's intent. His example was as follows.

 

The drunk driver hit her head on Wednesday

 

A few reasonable questions that may not be understood where a person could ask, might include; Who was hit? How? Do we know the gender of the driver? Do we know the nature of the accident?

 

The difficult aspect in determining intent is that we tend to group words or break sentences into chunks or phrases for analysis.  As an illustration of the example sentence above, the following may be reasonable interpretations.

 

The drunk driver          hit her head          on Wednesday

 

The drunk driver          hit her          head on          Wednesday

 

The drunk driver          hit          her head          on Wednesday

 

All imply very different meanings, so how do we know the author's intent?  We don't actually know the author's intent, as we need more clarification or else we just tend to unconsciously impose our own individual experiences and biases in relation to what we just read.

 

From the insight you had demonstrated in your posts, I figured you were smart enough to sort the wheat from the chaff, so I just gave links for additional information. Enjoy your journey.

[Quiet_Hollow]

Remember when CDs first came out and people invited you over to listen to their new player they would always pull out Dire Straits' Brothers in Arms for the demo?

LOL, sure do!