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The high end revisited!


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Let it die! If this is what it takes to get "that high end sound" 20 years ago, then we are better off without it:

Table 1: 1994 Class A System Cost

Cartridge: Symphonic Line RG-8 Gold $5000
Tonearm: SME V $2550
Turntable: Basis Debut Gold Standard (w/vacuum hold-down) $8900
CD Transport: Proceed CD Library $13,000
Digital Cable: TARA Labs Digital Master $595

DAC: Mark Levinson No.30 $14,950
Interconnects: MIT MI-330 CVT Terminator (3x1m) $5400
Preamplifier: Rowland Consummate $8750
Power Amplifiers: Mark Levinson No.20.6 $15,950
Loudspeakers: Wilson WATT3/Puppy2/WHOW $26,620
Speaker Cables: MIT MH-750 CVT Shotgun Terminator $4500
Total Retail Price: $106,215

$10K in cables in 1994 dollars? A $15K DAC?

I don't like the whole, "Dude, for that much you can buy a used set of blah blah blah..." but at the same time, telling people that they need to spend $100K in 20 years ago dollars for a high end system is also ridiculous.

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He did make some well taken points which are certainly valid today. For example, women and younger people having no interest. I have not encountered a female audiophile at any point in my career. Many have expressed appreciation for the sound quality, but that was all. Even my daughter, who grew up with state of the art sound, could care less and listens with ear buds 99% of the time. The comment about high end audio failing about making the public aware of its existence is also quite true. And even when a high end system is demonstrated for non-audiophiles, the comment often heard is that it sounds great and that "I never knew music could sound so involving, but my shelf system is good enough for me." Now, with so many recordings being absolutely awful in terms of compression and distortion, the need for super sounding equipment is somewhat reduced. I'd also love to see a study which analyzes the age range of the typical audiophile. My guess is that it would be at least in the 40s.

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I'd also love to see a study which analyzes the age range of the typical audiophile. My guess is that it would be at least in the 40s.

You know why this is so? When you get past being a twenty something and your hearing starts to roll off, you begin to appreciate what's left and subconsciously try to replace what you can't hear by improving the quality of the sound.

That's why I have to get a reality check from my 17 year old musician son every now and then to know what is happening in the extreme high end on my system as I make changes. However he thinks compression is useful.(He is aspiring to be a producer) Isn't it too soon for him to go to the dark side?

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"Now, with so many recordings being absolutely awful in terms of compression and distortion, the need for super sounding equipment is somewhat reduced."

They even go back and make the ones that used to sound good - bad. I actually gave up, bought a nice Oppo, and just went to Blu-ray concerts for any new purchases. I also listen to earbuds 99% of the time, the crappy recordings actually sound good -- which in the end, is all that really matters.

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"Now, with so many recordings being absolutely awful in terms of compression and distortion, the need for super sounding equipment is somewhat reduced."

Just a side note regarding compression and distortion...

The McIntosh C32 has a logarithm expander control. The logarithm expander circuitry is carried, and noises, such as a hum, hysterics, and a scratch, are decreased at the same time it expands a dynamic range in logarithm and rectifies it. This is the only unit that I have that possesses this feature. The only drawback that I have encountered is when you engage the circuit. As the circuit becomes more and more engaged, the output volume is reduced. This is no problem when you have plenty of power in your amp to compensate for the volume loss.

I'm not familiar with any other pre-amps that have this feature. I'm sure that there are some out there.

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I'd also love to see a study which analyzes the age range of the typical audiophile. My guess is that it would be at least in the 40s.

There's not many young folks who can afford $106,000 for a top end audiophile rig, or even 1/4 of that for a 2 channel stereo. I am sure that the average young person has many other things they would rather spend their money on[D][<:o)][au]

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I'd also love to see a study which analyzes the age range of the typical audiophile. My guess is that it would be at least in the 40s.

There's not many young folks who can afford $106,000 for a top end audiophile rig, or even 1/4 of that for a 2 channel stereo. I am sure that the average young person has many other things they would rather spend their money onDrinksParty!!!BeerBeerBeerAutomobile

I'm not talking about that kind of expense, but rather a couple of grand which is all that's needed to put together a very respectable sounding system which is far from consumer grade. But, regarding young people, I agree that their priorities are very different. The "kids" in their 20s who work for the same company as my daughter think nothing of dropping $500 for a handbag, or going out for "drinks and a bite to eat" 3-4 times/week at $50-$75 each time. And then there's the cost of designer tattoos at close to $1000 or more which that age group seems to enjoy. I guess life in the city is different. Maybe that's why Sound by Singer is still in business and apparently doing well (and he does sell systems in the stratospheric price range too!) Maynard

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I think a number of factors have contributed to the decline of the hifi industry. Most of which can be laid at their's and the record label's own doors.

1) Volume, volume, volume, and no I'm not talking about turning it up! The good mid-level manufacturers cannibalized their own brands to bring down price points and shift more units, this coincided perfectly with the rise of the big box retailers. In turn this eliminated the specialty high street stores and turned an educational and aspirational experience which hopefully led to a lifetime of sales into a on-off high pressure transaction. This business model is now failing under the weight of online retailing and I would hazard to guess that the large majority of systems are now sold without ever being heard or seen.

2) Pear Cables; OK I've singled them out but they are a perfect symptom to describe where the industry has gone. A consumer can see the value in amplifiers, speakers and players but then to be told that unless they spend another $1,000 on cables their system will not sound it's best will have even the most interested prospect running to Costco. Then there's little wood blocks and carpet insulators...

3) Music as background; we've come full circle, popular music started out as a disposable medium (which is why no one ever thought about rights), it became a more long-term product in the late 60s until the early 80s (I know there are exceptions but before pointing them out Google "Billboard #1 hits, 1973") but is once again relegated to disposability. To most modern listeners it's background, they like the hit and then move onto the next one. Although your typical Stereophile reader probably buys music to listen to their system, most consumers buy a system to listen to their music. Without compelling music the sale is lost.

4) Audio Quality (1); speaking as a pro-audio mixer it stinks! I know I'm preaching to the choir but everyday I hear "hit" records with actual identifiable problems, stuff that would have not made it past the cutting lathe when I started. This is in addition to the multiband compression that ensures everything sounds louder than everything else on every playback medium except a decent stereo system. So why own a decent stereo system at all?

5) Audio Quality (2); we have a generation of producers and engineers who have grown up never hearing a good playback system. Many in my industry get all grumpy old man about this (most of us came into the business through an interest in home systems) but I can't blame the newcomers. With the demise of the local hifi store where are they supposed to be exposed to anything beyond a Bose Lifestyle or ear buds. Combine that with marketers (and Jimmy Iovine who's made some of the worst sounding records known to man) who've convinced them that the truly atrocious Beats headphones are the ultimate in fidelity monitoring.

6) Audio Quality (3); the demise of the big studio. Big studios had big control rooms, they had to, they had big consoles and big tape machines to fit in there. Consequently they had big studio monitors which were used for most of the recording process alongside the veritable Auratone for a quick reference. In the 80s large systems were starting to be augmented by desktop monitors (the infamous Yamaha NS-10) which engineers felt gave a better reference to the increasingly poorer quality home systems people were using. Fast forward to today, most of the big studios are gone as are their fantastic monitoring systems. Music today is mixed on smaller reference monitors that are incapable of the big open soundscapes of the JBLs, Tannoys, Uries, Eastlakes and such and therefore produce music uniquely tailored to sound good on them.

7) A brief and unique moment in time; The early gramophone really took off when it became portable as the new found freedom of the automobile combined perfectly with a wind-up suitcase player and a handfull of 78s. For the first time in history music required no musicians and it was portable. Serious home stereo didn't really come into being until the 1950s and event then were highly expensive, targeted at a small segment of the community and outsold by a hundred and one brands of cheap semi-portable record players. Like popular music, the 60s and 70s were the heyday of the home hifi (no coincidence that my 3rd point is at the same time period) but by the early 80s and the Sony Walkman it started going portable again. CD Walkmans alleviated the problems of creating your own cassettes and gave you a better quality medium that could be used on all your systems. The iPod was inevitable and like the HMV player of the 20s the return to portable (albeit with your entire music collection on board) was complete. I have news for you, the heyday is not coming back. People are too attuned to listening to what they want, where they want, when they want.

8) Competition; Back in the hifi glory days it was music, music, music. Video games were a gleam in a BASIC programmers eye, TV was 4 channels without anyway of saving or time shifting, sports fandom as a lifestyle did not exist, casual dining as a way of life had yet to appear, the list goes on. People have many more entertainment options to spend their money on and music is now just one of those options. The dollars are there but spread much thinner.

So there you go. My very personal opinion and blinkered view from the inside.

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Home theater systems are hurting the sales of conventional 2 channel stereo systems. Many discount stores that were selling receivers, components, and speakers are now pushing 5 or 7 channel "home theater in a box" systems with speakers the size of a brick and something the size of a shoebox posing as a subwoofer. Of course the salesmen will assure you that this garbage is equal to any decent 2 channel system, although I doubt any of them have ever heard a decent stereo.

These days "music on the go" is what most people want, especially the younger ones. Thier idea of a high quality music system is an Ipod and their measure of quality is how many songs can be downloaded into their Nano. Some of the factory car stereos are fairly decent but most of the stuff installed at the car stereo shops is laughable. I often wonder how anyone would pay for such lo-fi to begin with.

People vote with their wallets, the marketplace responds, and high end audio is not the winner.

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I think Philip and Don have pretty much nailed it. I got into better stereo from being a musician and spending time in the local recording studio. Scully and MCI tape decks (the MCI console was really noisy...), I think large EV monitors. They even rented my JBL 4311s for a while until Styxx could get an handle on the EVs.

It has slowly moved up for me, as I've never had the money I wanted to spend on equipment.

My two sons are doing a little better. The oldest has some Heresy speakers and JBL L46s, the younger a pair of the L46s. When my music composition student younger son came home from school and I had acquired a set of LaScalas, he sat with his eyes closed and listened to them a while. The first comment was, "There's an orchestra in front of me..."

It is somewhat of an acquired taste. If you've only tasted vinegar, you don't know what honey is.

Bruce

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Philip's point about cables and other add-ons is particularly well taken as evidenced by the latest catalog I just received from Mapleshade Records. Even my wife, while looking through it and coming across things like trestles to raise cables off the carpet to prevent supposed sonic degradation, looked at me and said "this guy has to be joking!" I wonder how much of that kind of stuff is sold these days.

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I think a number of factors have contributed to the decline of the hifi industry. Most of which can be laid at their's and the record label's own doors.

You should write a book. I love the way you organized your thoughts on something that has many facets. Living in Nashville, two miles from Music Row, I have occasionally rubbed elbows with various music business people. Each has an opinion of one kind or another on the current state of the music industry but you captured most what I hear.

But take heart, there is a cottage industry of producers, engineers and musicians that are working out of either old school rooms like Jack White's operation or several jazz and country producers who have built their own rooms using the latest tech to get the sound right. http://www.carltatzdesign.com/custom-built-studios/studio_montanna.html

There are more than several engineers that are buying vintage equipment to listen to their work as there is huge demand to master recordings to vinyl that existed only digitally. Whole catalogs. Taylor Swift refuses to use digital in ear monitor equipment and reportedly insisted on her latest album Red be produced "old school". Diana Kraal's last sounds pretty good to me, but that might just be the cover.[:$]

I agree that things will never be the way they used to be, but then not everyone enjoys fine wine or whiskey. It doesn't diminish the pleasure for those of us that get it.

We should start a sub forum that talks about new or recent recordings that are worthy. [:P]

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There are still just as many teens into audio as when I was a kid in the 1970's and 80's.

When I was a young lad, I loved to turn the old 40 wpc Scott received to "11" on the Bose 601's. No subwoofers back then (JBL introduced a passive 18" sub that was the size of a fridge and 1/2 the price of a car).

I was young, full of energy, and in addition to Supertramp and other good music, I loved Van Halen and liked it LOUD.

If you want to know where this is today, next time you are at a stoplight and your car starts skaing from the idiot in the $1000 car with the $10,000 stereo at 130 db, there it is. These kids are not any dumber than we were, they just have access to way more power and audio is part of their other love in life (besides girls) cars.

I have a younf friend who I am sure will have severe tinnitus (SP?) by the time he is 35. He loves my system, I try to warn him that he will never be able to have one because he will be deaf. He thinks it is funny.

Like us, maybe a percentage of them will get into audio, or more likely HT, when they are older and have a house. That is if they can still hear. Glad that we did not have that kind of power back then.

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^^^ agree, I was a freshman in college in 1980, I had a new Trans Am, smoky and the bandit special. One day I got my heresy"s out and put em in the back seat laying sideways, had a clarion 300 eqb amp, I was blown away by the sound, it actually sounded better than in the dorm hooked to my sx750. I would put a buddy in the car and hit him with van halen, the song that started with a boom, forgot the name, but he would nearly jump outa his skin, plus this eleminated anyone ever sitting in the back seat. I rolled 3 years with those puppies in the back seat of the car, and at the beach I would take the t-tops off and sit them on top of the car and blast the whole beach, just had to start the car every fifteen minutes or so lol, sure pulled in the babes

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You should write a book. I love the way you organized your thoughts on something that has many facets.

I blushed! Just an insider's view and some not so humble opinions.

...several jazz and country producers who have built their own rooms using the latest tech to get the sound right. http://www.carltatzdesign.com/custom-built-studios/studio_montanna.html

But look at the rooms. Of the 24 shown only 4 have monitors that cost more than a good pair of used Klipschorns. And only one would qualify as an old school "real" monitoring system (the updated take on Eastlakes at Red Door).

There are more than several engineers that are buying vintage equipment to listen to their work as there is huge demand to master recordings to vinyl that existed only digitally.

The culture now prevailing in recording is that it's all about the gear. Sure we used to talk kit all the time but it was always subservient to the music. Now, like the hi-end hifi owner buying music to showcase his system, it's all about what pre-amp was used and the summing mixer, not about the content. I talked to a band recently who had been convinced that they could not make a good record without recording to analog tape. The tape stock alone was 25% of their entire budget! Some of the world's greatest records were made on the shittiest gear (hello Stax and Studio One) imaginable. But gear sales feeds the machine that the big studio manufacturing groups have become.

What kept records vibrant in the past was that the artist had to make decisions right then, on the spot. The label expected an album a year and had right of refusal to all the material presented and also held the purse strings (big studios were costly places to screw around in). During that same year the artist was expected to tour for 6 months to promote the record. There just wasn't the time, money or technology to spend years "perfecting" a record, the Grateful Dead released Workingman's Dead and American Beauty in the same 12 months whilst touring almost continually. Nowadays guitar tracks are re-amped, vocals are comp'd from hundreds of takes and every track has a plug-in that requires days of soul searching to perfect. I'd be much more impressed if Taylor Swift or Diana Krall went into the studio and cut a 2 track album straight to acetate in 6 hours.

Then there's the businessmen. Back in the honest-to-goodness mob days of music moguls you had a bunch of grumpy old geezers who didn't care (or care to understand) what the music was as long as it sold. The cost of production was low (the artists were getting stiffed) and the rewards high so throw a bunch of stuff at the wall and see what sticks. But when the top 40 market exploded and the money went from merely good to completely stratospheric they figured out they'd better hire some young 'uns who can maybe figure out what the kids want to hear. Well by the late 70's these young 'uns were using market focus groups and strategic plans to decide which records got made and which didn't (would any one of them have signed Captain Beefheart)? The along came MTV, the 800lb gorilla and a perfect storm of marketing and appearance over talent. It was 1964 British Invasion all over again, a hook and a good look was all you needed and guess who had now ascended to the executive suites of the labels?

The rest you know...

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Sadly David Manley passed away this week. So pertinent to this thread is his article from 1994 linked below.

http://positive-feedback.com/Issue65/manley.htm

Here's wonderful snippet from their Mahi owner's manual which about sums up this conversation:

Will Scratch Your Floor: Use pennies under pointed feet to avoid marring cabinetry. Try quarters if you are in upper tax brackets. The bargain performer would be nickels. Paper currency does not function as well. Euro coins work 1.54 times better. Concrete pavers or wooden chopping blocks serve fine for amplifier platforms.

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