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Heresy I capacitor recommendations?


rjsilva

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The Solens mask detail and the Sonicaps make the speaker too bright. There is a big difference between being satisfied and being blown away. I'm going back to Jensen PIO capacitors for my Heritage crossover builds. I shouldn't have caved to the meter readers. Sorry Bob and Al. :) If building one of Al's designs, I would use a good film type like the Theta in the tweeter section and Auricaps in the primary position.

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You're too old and I'm too tired old friend to go around this one again. :)

Yes, I am old, but if you get rested enough, we can go around again. Fortunately the laws of physics have not changed since last time, so I can just refer you to my previous position.

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The Solens mask detail and the Sonicaps make the speaker too bright ... I'm going back to Jensen PIO capacitors for my Heritage crossover builds ... If building one of Al's designs, I would use a good film type like the Theta in the tweeter section and Auricaps in the primary position.

Your reputation causes immediate respect, though my wallet is much happer with the $15 spent on four Solen's (shipped) than $35 each for Auricaps :) I'll live with the less detail for now!

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So Bob, what do you think the average original ESR numbers might have been for all of those various mylar caps PK was using? Do you think they were the same as a new tightly wound polypropylene film type? Don't we almost know for certain that the caps he used were already a decade old or older before he even started using them? How can we claim to be restoring these speakers back "to their original sound", when we know the original insertion losses were much higher, and certainly would have effected the sonic signature of the speaker. The PIOs are the only caps that I have heard that produce what I would call a balanced sound without supplying the low level grit I hear in Mylars. Polypropylenes are too bright unless you can adjust the squawker output.

I love a good measurement, but you have to listen in a good room too, and your barn doesn't count. :)

Let me ask you this: I sent you one or two to build a network with and you and Mike compared. You said couldn't hear a difference. So, if you can't hear a difference, why beat me over the head for using them? I have too many people claiming, including myself, that they can hear a difference, and guess what -- your measurements agree! Now, if there is a measureable difference, it stands to reason that you should be able to hear it, but you guys don't -- what is the most logical explanation for that? Isn't it possible that the noise floor in your environment is simply too high? There is another possibility. I recently had my hearing tested as part of a routine checkup by my surgeon/ENT. I have notchouts that are almost 15db centered at around 9kHz. He claims it's normal for my age, but I was still pretty depressed about it. He did point out that it's not really that bad because it's out of the range of things that really matter. So, there is the hearing angle to consider too.

I don't think it's worth having a discussion about really. There are people who hear things others don't, people who have preferences and people who don't, and some who just want something done with the least amount of money possible and others who are willing to spend more. Physics doesn't change any of that.

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I have notchouts that are almost 15db centered at around 9kHz.

It just plain bites that we have imperfect hearing![:(] If thats all you have your lucky. I have one ear that had to be re-conned and it rolls off at 12kHz and the other rolls off at 15kHz.

Dumb question: What are the measurable performance specifications for capacitors?

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"So Bob, what do you think the average original ESR numbers might have
been for all of those various mylar caps PK was using? Do you think they
were the same as a new tightly wound polypropylene film type? Don't
we almost know for certain that the caps he used were already a decade
old or older before he even started using them? How can we claim to be
restoring these speakers back "to their original sound", when we know
the original insertion losses were much higher, and certainly would have
effected the sonic signature of the speaker."

Let's take this easy part and answer it first, or rather, let's let Paul answer it.

post-9312-13819829206494_thumb.jpg

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Now to elaborate a bit on this, notice that Paul talked about the ESR
being "low enough". Notice also he did not mention the perils of
getting ESR too low. I don't think he overlooked that. He would have
liked to find ESR so low as not to be even measurable. Why? Because
ESR is bad, something we do not want, something to be minimized.

I
have tested enough of the old Klipsch film in oil caps to know that at
least by the 70s Klipsch used very low ESR caps. Most are over 1/2 ohm
by now, but sometimes I find one that tests down to around 0.1 ohm. So,
I infer from that the likelyhood of all of them being better than 0.1
ohms ESR when Klipsch installed them. I can't think of the mechanism
that would cause ESR to lower with age.
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Now to elaborate a bit on this, notice that Paul talked about the ESR being "low enough". Notice also he did not mention the perils of getting ESR too low. I don't think he overlooked that. He would have liked to find ESR so low as not to be even measurable. Why? Because ESR is bad, something we do not want, something to be minimized.

The letter is only briefly likening the "philosophy" regarding capacitors to tube vs. SS. The only thing he wrote is that "D" needs to be "low" and we can also infer that it should be below a level where there is "no audible difference" (since the "same philosophy applies to capacitors"). Who knows what "no audible difference" was to him in specific measurements. You're reading too much into it. Additionally, when writing a somewhat defensive letter like this you can hardly expect him to be entirely forthcoming about real-life details which might contradict his ideals.

I have tested enough of the old Klipsch film in oil caps to know that at least by the 70s Klipsch used very low ESR caps. Most are over 1/2 ohm

by now, but sometimes I find one that tests down to around 0.1 ohm. So, I infer from that the likelyhood of all of them being better than 0.1 ohms ESR when Klipsch installed them. I can't think of the mechanism that would cause ESR to lower with age.

Now that's more interesting! I'm anxious to read a response from Dean on that :)

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I doubt very much that Klipsch measured every capacitor they used. What is more likely is that once in a blue moon the manufacturer cranked out a cap with exceptionally low ESR, and the norm was probably in the vicinity of a quarter ohm or more. I think that's a reasonable conclusion based on the available winding technology forty years ago. My personal belief is that the motor runs, motor starts, and epoxy coated oval polyesters from the 60s and 70s and even into the early 80s had higher ESR numbers than we see now. In spite of their slightly elevated higher ESR number, I believe Paper in Oils are superior replacements for those old networks. They provide a clean full rich sound without tipping the balance of the top too far forward.

Strange that in his comments regarding tubes and SS, that PWK wouldn't discuss output impedance, which is in fact the primary reason these amps sound different from each other. I know he owned a Dynaco ST-70 and possibly some McIntosh tube gear. So, does anyone here think either of those type amps sound anything like a Crown D-whatever? Seriously. The letter is nice, but I think most listeners here would agree that it falls way short in the reasonable explanation department. Being a genius and having all of the answers isn't the same thing.

"I have a new 2.2 mF mylar cap here at my desk right now. It measures 2.316 ohms ESR." -- Bob Crites

Now, you said that back in 2005. With that in mind, how do you reconcile your earlier assertion that Klipsch went to low ESR caps in the 70s with the fact that even now, Klipsch is still using relatively high ESR Mylars to populate their Heritage crossovers? Granted, they probably don't measure as bad as the one you had on your desk a decade ago, but they sure don't measure like a Sonicap.

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It should be noted that on the older Klipsch networks A, AA, B, E, that the midrange cap is very important as the sound for the tweeter must go through it first (this is also true of the ALK Universal network).

The newer Klipsch networks are not made this way.

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"I doubt very much that Klipsch measured every capacitor they used"

That is probably correct. According to Jim Harris in the 1989 "Speaker Builder" interview, Klipsch used a PC to check each crossover and another PC to check each speakers output. I think I have read somewhere about a "crossover tester" from the earlier days before the PC.

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