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Klipsch SW-115 connection problems/question


Lord-B.

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Hello Klipsch Community,

I have a wonderful Klipsch Set at home which runs the RF7MKII, RC64MKII, RS62MKII together with a RW-12D that I just recently replaced with a SW-115.

So far so good.

The Signal is coming from a Yamaha RX-V2067 which has a Mono dedicated RCA Sub out. Now, the RW-12D was connected through a Y-Adapter using both RCA inputs.

The Speaker set-up in the Yamaha, sets the front speakers to large which means that there is a dedicated frequency that the sub will only get. I have set the system to Extra Bass which means that the sub also gets those frequencies from other bass signals besides the LFE ones that run on the .1 channel!

Should I use the sub out mono cable and only plug it into the LFE/Left RCA input from the SW-115 or should I keep using the Y-Adapter to go into both RCA inputs, LFE/Left and Right?

Does it make a difference at all?

Thank you so much for your help!!

Mark

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Mark,

Welcome to the forum.

I have a wonderful Klipsch Set at home which runs the RF7MKII, RC64MKII, RS62MKII together with a RW-12D that I just recently replaced with a SW-115.

So far so good.

Very nice.[Y][Y]

Should I use the sub out mono cable and only plug it into the LFE/Left RCA input from the SW-115 or should I keep using the Y-Adapter to go into both RCA inputs, LFE/Left and Right?

Does it make a difference at all?

Using a Y cable does make a difference, about 3dB gain. So does turning the gain up 3dB. Really your choice.

One thing I would reconsider is the "extra bass" setting. I do set my RF-63's to large but do not use the "enhanced bass" setting on my NAD pre/pro because of an annoying boominess. Your Yamaha may handle it differently but even when I was using my Onkyo receiver and set it to double bass, same boominess. Just a thought.

Bill

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Thank you so much for this Bill!!

Regarding the extra Bass...only reason for activating this was that I understood that without it being activated the

Sub would only get the low frequencies from the LFE .1 signal and with active extra bass it would also put

through regular low frequencies from the other channels. I thought that this could be an added value for example

for Music DVDs or Blu Rays that could maybe use some extra bass support in the low range although the RF7

does a really good job at it.

Thanks again,

Mark

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Well, with the Yamaha 2067 you can only activate the extra bass when the front speakers are set to 'large'. This way you activate that all low frequencies below a certain threshold which go to the front speakers are being output by both the subwoofer and the frontspeakers. This does not affect the general .1subwoofer signal nor the crossover to the center and rears which are set as they are to 'small'.

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Bill, I think that the "extra bass" he's referring to is the redirected bass from all the other speakers that's below the crossover point of each individual speaker. I could be wrong though (happens more times than I care to admit).

Carl,

Yes that is what I was referring to. In my system(room), boominess and bass cancellations rear their ugly heads too often when I use this feature.

Bill

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Using the Plus or Extra bass feature can lead to boomy bass and cancellations issues. IMHO, it should not be used. Setting all the speakers to small will allow the avr to employ the proper bass management of the system for most people. The bass management system is a large part of the avr's price, so why not use it.

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Using the Plus or Extra bass feature can lead to boomy bass and cancellations issues. IMHO, it should not be used. Setting all the speakers to small will allow the avr to employ the proper bass management of the system for most people. The bass management system is a large part of the avr's price, so why not use it.

I basically understand and agree with what you are saying Derrick, but then again, with all of the high-tech features in today's AVR's, it just strikes me to have to set a RF7 MKII speaker to small, to be able to get the best solution for the overall speaker set-up incorporating a subwoofer. What would be a large one then in the perspective of today's AVR manufacturers?

Thanks everybody for all of the great input!

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I basically understand and agree with what you are saying Derrick, but then again, with all of the high-tech features in today's AVR's, it just strikes me to have to set a RF7 MKII speaker to small, to be able to get the best solution for the overall speaker set-up incorporating a subwoofer. What would be a large one then in the perspective of today's AVR manufacturers?

Small has nothing to do with the size of your speakers. It basically activates your subwoofer management in your AVR. Setting speakers to large allows for multiple sources of bass which can lead to cancellation.

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Thanks! I didn't know that. According to the instruction manual coming from Yamaha for the AVR it says that a speaker with woofer diameter size larger than 16cm (approx. 6,3") should be set to large and speakers with woofers smaller than the 6,3" diameter should be set to small.

What would be a good frequency handover then for the RF7 MKII's?

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Anywhere from 40 to 80 Hz. Play with it and see what point sounds best. A good starting point is one octave above the lowest rating of the speakers frequency. For example if the + - 3dB point of the speaker is 30 Hz, start off trying a crossover point of 60 Hz. If your avr has auto calibration, it may choose a point for you. You can leave it there or try other points and see what you like.

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Using a Y adaptor to connect the RCA cable to the sub may add 3-10 db. It can also help wake up the sub in standby/sleep mode if it is used. I brought mine for $3.99. Since it is so cheap, why not since we have spent thousands on the other parts of the system. It may also decrease EM interference, buzz or hum and make the sub play better at low levels.

Setting Speakers as Large or Small:

People always ask this question. The answer is very simple. If you own a
subwoofer that outputs good bass sound, you should set all your speakers to
SMALL. In general, if you own a subwoofer, it may be wise to set all your
speakers to small for several reasons:

  1. When there is an overlap of bass sound from the front speakers and the
    subwoofer, you will get bloated and boomy bass.
  2. A subwoofer can play low frequencies all the way down to 20Hz or lower. Even
    relatively large front speakers cannot go that low.
  3. The placement of a sub in a room is the primary factor in receiving good
    bass sound. You cannot adjust the position of the front speakers and move them
    to the side or back.
  4. If the subwoofer and the front speakers play the same bass frequencies,
    there will be a possibility of phase cancellation of certain bass frequencies.
  5. Redirecting the bass to the subwoofer relieves the receiver/amplifier from
    having to work on reproducing the low frequencies and this greatly improves the
    headroom.
  6. If you are using the Audyssey MultEQ calibration, you will get much better
    bass performance because the MultEQ subwoofer filters have 8x higher resolution
    than the filters for the other speakers.

People have a psycological
difficulty with the word SMALL. They have spent good money on their front
speakers and get insulted when the AVR sets them to SMALL. Remember that this is
not a personal insult against you or your speakers. My Definitive Technology
front speakers have 15" built-in subwoofers with built-in 300 watt amplifiers.
In addition to those, I have six external subwoofers in my HT room. When I set
the front speakers to SMALL, the quality of the sound (both music and movies)
improves.http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95817

Think of this way, you paid good money for your sub, so use it to it's full potential. IMHO, I favor a single xo for all speakers and a higher xo when using bass management like 80 Hz. I think the multiple xo thing is driven by consumer demand and not science.

I have tried it both ways and can get decent results each way: Large or Small, but the best bass is from my subs.The small setting beats out the Large for music and HT. The 2 10in woofers in the RF 7's is no match for my 15 in. woofer in my PA 150. sub or the 2 12 in. woofers in my Epik Legend with the suface area between a 16-18 in. sub. Even with one sub, physic support the use of bass management. I kinda like telling people those big 250/1000 watt speakers are set to small, lol.[;)]

Switching between Large and Small after autocalibration is not the same as running the calibration as Large VS Small due to a change in the EQ'ing. Using bass management and Y connector can increase avr and sub amp headroom.

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Using bass management and Y connector can increase avr and sub amp headroom.

Directing bass away from your avr, towards your sub will increase headroom in your avr's amp section. Using a Y will not increase amp headroom in your subwoofer. It will not increase your subs max SPL either.

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Using a Y will not increase amp headroom in your subwoofer. It will not increase your subs max SPL either.

Thanks for catching that . The Y connector will make the signal to the sub stronger and as you stated it will not alter the maximum SPL of the sub. The Max. SPL of the sub is an intrinsic property based on the sub design and components. The increase in db is due to the following:

Using a Y adapter will add two correlated signals. When you sum two equal
correlated audio signals (i.e., mono sources from sub output on the
receiver/preamp), you will get twice the signal level (A1 + A2 = 2A1, since
A1=A2).


Therefore , since V2 = 2 V1 and the log (2) = 0.30103,
it follows

20 . log (2V1/V1) = 20 . log (2) = 6dB gain in
voltage
.

For power, it will be

10. log (2P1/P1) =
10 . log (2) = 3dB increase in power.

Wye Y Cable claims that a 10 db increase is possible. http://www.hdtvsupply.com/ycawi1jato2p.html#axzz2L1QyBH3y. A 3-6 db is supported by more of the literature that I have read.

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Using a Y adaptor to connect the RCA cable to the sub may add 3-10 db. It can also help wake up the sub in standby/sleep mode if it is used. I brought mine for $3.99. Since it is so cheap, why not since we have spent thousands on the other parts of the system. It may also decrease EM interference, buzz or hum and make the sub play better at low levels.

Setting Speakers as Large or Small:

People always ask this question. The answer is very simple. If you own a
subwoofer that outputs good bass sound, you should set all your speakers to
SMALL. In general, if you own a subwoofer, it may be wise to set all your
speakers to small for several reasons:

  1. When there is an overlap of bass sound from the front speakers and the
    subwoofer, you will get bloated and boomy bass.
  2. A subwoofer can play low frequencies all the way down to 20Hz or lower. Even
    relatively large front speakers cannot go that low.
  3. The placement of a sub in a room is the primary factor in receiving good
    bass sound. You cannot adjust the position of the front speakers and move them
    to the side or back.
  4. If the subwoofer and the front speakers play the same bass frequencies,
    there will be a possibility of phase cancellation of certain bass frequencies.
  5. Redirecting the bass to the subwoofer relieves the receiver/amplifier from
    having to work on reproducing the low frequencies and this greatly improves the
    headroom.
  6. If you are using the Audyssey MultEQ calibration, you will get much better
    bass performance because the MultEQ subwoofer filters have 8x higher resolution
    than the filters for the other speakers.

People have a psycological
difficulty with the word SMALL. They have spent good money on their front
speakers and get insulted when the AVR sets them to SMALL. Remember that this is
not a personal insult against you or your speakers. My Definitive Technology
front speakers have 15" built-in subwoofers with built-in 300 watt amplifiers.
In addition to those, I have six external subwoofers in my HT room. When I set
the front speakers to SMALL, the quality of the sound (both music and movies)
improves.http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95817

Think of this way, you paid good money for your sub, so use it to it's full potential. IMHO, I favor a single xo for all speakers and a higher xo when using bass management like 80 Hz. I think the multiple xo thing is driven by consumer demand and not science.

I have tried it both ways and can get decent results each way: Large or Small, but the best bass is from my subs.The small setting beats out the Large for music and HT. The 2 10in woofers in the RF 7's is no match for my 15 in. woofer in my PA 150. sub or the 2 12 in. woofers in my Epik Legend with the suface area between a 16-18 in. sub. Even with one sub, physic support the use of bass management. I kinda like telling people those big 250/1000 watt speakers are set to small, lol.Wink

Switching between Large and Small after autocalibration is not the same as running the calibration as Large VS Small due to a change in the EQ'ing. Using bass management and Y connector can increase avr and sub amp headroom.

That is the most helpful and understandable advice I have ever read or received in relation to AVR speaker set-ups!! [Y]

Thank you!

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As hinted in the thread, there is really no need to use a Y-adapter unless the sub's Auto-ON (if it's so equipped) is not workig properly, in which case a Y-adapter might help.

With your front speakers, it is understandable why you would want to run them as LARGE. It is also understandable why you would want to use the "Extra Bass" (is that really what it's called?) setting so that the sub can participate in the reproduction of not just the LFE channel but some of the front channel bass, as well This sort of setup can be made to work but it can also result in, as also hinted in the thread, a lot of redundant bass. How much redundant bass there would be would depend upon (in addition to your room's effect, of course) the low-pass frequency which might be being applied to the front channel bass frequencies that are duplicated at the sub. With many AVRs it can be difficult to ascertain what that frequency might be. If you can still set a front channel "crossover" setting while the front speakers are set to LARGE, this may well be the low-pass that is applied with the "Extra Bass" setting. So, setting it to 40Hz (or even lower if you AVR allows it), near the low-end capablilty of your RF7s, might be useful. If, however, there is no way to ascertain or adjust this setting, your AVR may well duplicate all those front channel frequencies below, for example, 80Hz (or even higher). In which case your setup would be reproducing a significant amount of bass redundantly from both your front speakers and the sub between the RF7s low-end roll-off and the 80Hz (or whatever ) low-pass that is being applied to those front channel frequencies that are also being sent to the subwoofer.

Assuming that you can set different crossover frequencies for all your speaker channels, I think that a better option would be to try setting the RF7s to SMALL with a 40Hz crossover setting. This will allow you to still get a lot out of your front speakers' prodigious low-end capabilty without worrying about reproducing redundant front channel bass at the subwoofer, as well as also relieve your AVR's front chanel amps of having to amplify those frequecies below 40Hz. And, honestly, you may want to even try using the more oft-cited 80Hz (for all the speakers, btw). I know that this might seem high to you for your speakers, but the octave difference between a 40Hz and 80Hz crossover setting is significant in terms of the amount of work the AVR's amplifiers have to do in order to amplify the lowest frequencies. If clean headroom is not a concern or issue for you, though, this may not be a significant concern for you. But realize that even with an 80Hz crossover setting, your front speakers' woofers will still be used pretty significantly to reproduce the front channel content.

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Derrick,

I use Audyssey, and have had better results setting my LaScalas to large. In fact, they are set at 55HZ. Here is why... Even though I have two giant Tuba Home Theater subs, the area is too big for them to effectively pressurize. I'm talking about 50' wide by 60' deep with 24' ceilings. I don't use my system for 100% theater. It is a shop, and I am frequently moving around and have the listening mode set to 'full mono'. If I had two more THT's in the rear, setting the LS's to small would be fine. One of these days, I will build a couple more, but I am currently busy restoring a truck.

With my smaller HT systems, I set the speakers to small. It works very well, but I still have to go back and tweek things after calibration. I use simple pink noise and an FFT to confirm what I think I hear. My ears are 50 years old, so I don't want to cause other, younger, listeners to be in pain because of it.

I am accustomed to Audyssey. It does a very good job filtering between the speakers and the sub to avoid cancellation. I wasn't aware the sub filter on the Audyssey MultiEQ was 8x higher resolution, but that would explain why I don't have cancellation issues from my system.

Thanks for the insight,

Craig

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