Heritage Modifications?

[Rhetor]

Hey all, I have a couple of pair of La Scalas (1976 and 1980) I picked up this last year which I just love. But, I feel I am not getting the detail nor the bass that should be in there. Also, I have a pair of K-horns (1978, in great corners, sealed tight in there using the pipe foam) same issue, not getting the detail or especially the bass I think should be there. I properly recapped all six speakers with Crites kits . . . Amazing improvement, but the detail and bass I feel should be there after the recap, especially in the K-horn bass but also in the La Scalas, still, after the recap, less than expected. (I have another set of old K-horns, not in corners, not rehabbed in my basement shop and get much more bass out of them than the recapped ones in the HT.). I have tried the CT125s in them, but went back to the old K77round in the 76 La Scalas and the 78 K-horns; stayed with the K77M square mags in the 80 La Scalas. (The CT125s are an amazing tweeter; I just prefer the vintage K77 sound.). All six speakers have AA crossovers. At this point, I am just wondering if I should simply try different crossovers, perhaps, in the pursuit of more clarity and bass. I would try one pair at a time, and eventually would like to match all three pair. So, would I be just wasting money by changing out crossovers? Would changing crossovers get me more clarity and more bass (I am confident that the tweeters, mids, and woofers are all fully functionally--all six could not have the exact same mechanical problem leading to insufficient clarity and bass.)? Are there other more modest tweaks I should try first? What crossover (knowing in the end all 3 pair of speakers would get the same treatment) should I consider to increase performance? (Sorry for the one big paragraph....writing on an iPad.). Over a year ago, my wife told me to get a hobby . . . So, I did. I bought a beat up pair of KG2s for $50 . . . Then it was on. Now I have a house full of vintage Klipsch and it is time to do more than recap them. I am under orders to buy no more speakers until I sell some, which I did--my original Reference HT setup. Now I am all vintage,all the time, Klipsch only (except for a 60s pair of Bizaks in my office). Any and all advice is appreciated since I know have,some cash from the Reference sale, to do more than just recap. Looking forward to Forum member help as I tweak forward. I figure I have about another few decades, hopefully, with the vintage Klipsch hobby before my kids get everything. I am just not a good speaker seller . . . I get too emotionally attached. :-). I am simply trying to massage a little better performance out of the stock horn setups. Thanks for the help in advance!

[Axz Hout]

h

[Rhetor]

Thanks for the reply, CF . . .

My basement shop k-horns have meaningful bass . . . Just pushed up to a straight block wall, not in corners or anything. They are,from the late 70s and all stock, never have changed the caps . . . Just a pair I picked up . . . The ones in my HT are my concern. I have them in solid corners in a log cabin, sealed with the pipe foam trick, recapped crossovers with a Crites kit. Just not as much bass as I expected. They are the fronts in my HT. Not a problem with the solid performing sub I have in there when watching a movie. But I cannot get enough bass out of them to satisfy when listening to two channel . . . I then just go 2.1, but 2 channel just surprises me, with both the k-horns and my La Scalas, just not enough meaningful bass. I am running a Denon 4311 in the HT and know how to set it up right. I was reading a post Dennie made recently where he said better crossovers can lead to improved bass response and clarity in K-horns and La Scalas . . . If that is the case, then maybe my problem is the AA crossovers I have in my k-horns and la Scalas, even though I recapped them with Sonics from Crites . . . Just looking for more bass and clarity out of the ones I know have, and for suggestions in how to tweak them appropriately.

[ricktate]

Sounds like a polarity problem on the K-Horns to me...If you got another pair with good bass I would look at all connections. Rick

[Axz Hout]

g

[Daddy Dee]

Think you've got good crossovers and hoping for more bass with different crossovers would help. I think it's good advice to rule out polarity problems. Your speakers should not be bass shy at all.

One tweak I've done in some rooms and liked the change. If you drop the squawker by one tap on the autoformer it will reduce mid output by 3db. This will increase the perceived bass relative to the mids.

[Axz Hout]

g

[iwander]

In your HT setup, are the speakers set for full range. If not, your surround processor is sending all the bottom end to the sub. I had mine set using Audessey which automatically set the fronts and backs to small speakers. Lack of bottom end on my Cornwalls, front and back. Manually set my fronts and backs to large (full range) and all the sound came back. I had to tweak my sub so it wasn't fighting with the Cornwalls.

[Rhetor]

In the HT room, K-horn Fronts, belle Center, Belle side surrounds and rear La Scalas, KG4 wides and heights, with a Martin Logan Depthi sub (3x8" powered woofers), run by a Denon 4311 (with a reconditioned Phase,Linear 400 amp running the k-horn fronts. When I run the K-Khorns as two channel, the bass coming out is not much. K-horns in that HT are sealed in good corners. That HT room has wood 8 ft' ceilings--walls are log. The other set of khorns are in the basement pushed agains a cinder brick wall with no corners, being driven by an old Pioneer SX-9000 and, without being in a corner, get good bass. In another room, there is another HT setup, with La Scala fronts, Belle center and four a heresy surrounds, driven by a Pioneer 94TXH with a Klipsch 12" sub. The La Scalas in that room have weak bass when run 2 channel. Source material, vinyl or CD. It is the two channel function that show me little bass, because,when runnin multi-channel I cross the k-horns and La Scalas at 80hz for the suns to handle the low end.

I am never much happy with Audessy results, so I run all of the levels in eq at +-0db, except I back the center a belle down -4db.

[Rhetor]

In your HT setup, are the speakers set for full range. If not, your surround processor is sending all the bottom end to the sub. I had mine set using Audessey which automatically set the fronts and backs to small speakers. Lack of bottom end on my Cornwalls, front and back. Manually set my fronts and backs to large (full range) and all the sound came back. I had to tweak my sub so it wasn't fighting with the Cornwalls.

I tried setting the Khorns in the HT to large with crossover at 30hz, but made no difference.

[Daddy Dee]

dee .. if one just drops the squawker tap without halving the cap from 13uf to 6.5uf big problems may occur especially if you crank it up to 110+db

You must have a flea [tube] amp and just get away with it. chris

try Touch at 120db it will blow up on you unless you have your caps on straight!!

Christopher,

haven't had any trouble so far, but listening is not really loud.

could you say more about the potential problems?

[moray james]

Ohhhhh getting close Dee to the big 20K. Congrats in advance. Thats a lot of forum community envolvement. Thank you. Best regards Moray James.

[Marvel]

dee .. if one just drops the squawker tap without halving the cap from 13uf to 6.5uf big problems may occur especially if you crank it up to 110+db

You must have a flea [tube] amp and just get away with it. chris

try Touch at 120db it will blow up on you unless you have your caps on straight!!

Christopher,

haven't had any trouble so far, but listening is not really loud.

could you say more about the potential problems?

It will shift the crossover point DOWN a little bit, allowing more bass through the K55. I haven't calculated mine, but I know mine is shift down because I didn't change the caps. However, my crossover isn't a stock design and is a constant impedance which may help mitigate the problem. Running the 2A3 amps doesn't hurt either. []

Bruce

[Rhetor]

Sounds like a polarity problem on the K-Horns to me...If you got another pair with good bass I would look at all connections. Rick

You mean, like wires reversed?

[ricktate]

Check all wires for polarity...including all crossover wires,speaker wires,amp wires. Something sounds wrong here..Rick

[Axz Hout]

y

[Rhetor]

On the HT set of K-horns, on an Audyssey setup six months ago on the Denon 4311, identified a a polarity issue. I was confident I had the + - wires right . . . So, I just switched them in the back of the Denon and went on . . . Rather than pull the K-horn out of the wall. I was also sure I hooked the driver wires right on the crossover . . . But, I never checked the other wires on the crossover itself . . . Guess I had better pull out that K-horn and check everything on that crossover to ensure the polarity is correct.

Check all wires for polarity...including all crossover wires,speaker wires,amp wires. Something sounds wrong here..Rick

[Rhetor]

To the OP's lack of bass, have you checked the polarity [phasing] in all the speakers? Try running power to one Klipschorn. At moderate levels how does one sound? chris

Good idea, Chris . . . Will give that a try.

[colterphoto1]

First, can we call it 'Modifications' and not necessarily 'Upgrades'? Don't take it personally, but a lot of what I see guys doing here may or may not actually improve the sound. Without proper test equipment and procedure it's impossible to know. Let's remember what caps do in simple crossover networks (like the A and AA). They filter sound going to the midrange and tweeters. To simplify, aging capacitors gain in resistance, which in essence turns down the volume in the HF components. So doing a cap swap on a network would turn UP the hf, which may lead to the impression that there is LESS bass. Yes I've done this and heard the result. So let's really thing about what we're doing (generally speaking, not speaking directly to OP here) before we go charging into a speaker cabinet swapping out parts.

Has there been any discussion about the ROOM or the WALLS? In a Khorn, that bass is derived by using the room boundary as part of the horn. If the walls are thin paneling (as I've seen in some Forum member's basements) or 1/2" drywall, there will be some flexation, leading to what may be perceived as lack of tight bass. If you build a room or corner where Khorns are to be placed, I'd make that wall as stiff as possible. For instance, my 1950 home has blocking in the 2x4 walls and double thickness of 1/2" plaster board. Very dense and stiff, and Khorns sound amazing in this room.

[Axz Hout]

h