Heritage Modifications?

[Axz Hout]

y

[Rhetor]

First, can we call it 'Modifications' and not necessarily 'Upgrades'? Don't take it personally, but a lot of what I see guys doing here may or may not actually improve the sound. Without proper test equipment and procedure it's impossible to know. Let's remember what caps do in simple crossover networks (like the A and AA). They filter sound going to the midrange and tweeters. To simplify, aging capacitors gain in resistance, which in essence turns down the volume in the HF components. So doing a cap swap on a network would turn UP the hf, which may lead to the impression that there is LESS bass. Yes I've done this and heard the result. So let's really thing about what we're doing (generally speaking, not speaking directly to OP here) before we go charging into a speaker cabinet swapping out parts.

Has there been any discussion about the ROOM or the WALLS? In a Khorn, that bass is derived by using the room boundary as part of the horn. If the walls are thin paneling (as I've seen in some Forum member's basements) or 1/2" drywall, there will be some flexation, leading to what may be perceived as lack of tight bass. If you build a room or corner where Khorns are to be placed, I'd make that wall as stiff as possible. For instance, my 1950 home has blocking in the 2x4 walls and double thickness of 1/2" plaster board. Very dense and stiff, and Khorns sound amazing in this room.

Great coaching on title change . . . Done and no offense taken. Obviously I am on a steep learning curve still, and I sincerely appreciate the direction. My corners are in a log cabin . . . So the K-horns are tucked tight in there with the pipe foam tightly sealing them against the logs which are straight and true, and have filler between the logs making for a hard straight surface like a wall. The pipe foam sure looks like it is making for a tight fit. There is no flex in the log walls. In the HT room on the first floor, floors and ceilings (8 ft.) are tight fitting interlaced 1 1/2 wood. With a hard wood wall in the back too (with small walk through openings about 36" wide). The room is 18' wide x 20' long. The K-horns are in the front corners of the 18' wall in the only two true corners in the room.

[Rhetor]

Let's remember what caps do in simple crossover networks (like the A and AA). They filter sound going to the midrange and tweeters. To simplify, aging capacitors gain in resistance, which in essence turns down the volume in the HF components. So doing a cap swap on a network would turn UP the hf, which may lead to the impression that there is LESS bass. Yes I've done this and heard the result.

That makes sense . . . The K-horns I have in my basement, which I have not recapped, which are just pushed up against a cement block wall with no corners, "seem" to project more bass than the the recapped ones in the HT . . . I will admit, I can tell the basement horns need a recap those 35-year-old K-horns and I can hear the weakness in mids and highs as compared to the bass in that set. So, it seems I have less bass in the recapped ones in the HT, but maybe not. After work, I will take a close look at the possible polarity issue, and do some 2 channel listening, checking one speaker at a time too. Also, part of my deficiency is having never heard K-horns besides the ones I bought last year. I am reading about the expected bass in them. I moved from a RF82 7.1 setup to my first Heritage setup having never auditioned, K-horns, Belles, or La Scalas before purchasing my first ones. Kind of manic when into a new hobby. Sorry.

[Daddy Dee]

thanks Chris.

what Colter said about mods vs upgrades

[Rhetor]

OK... so if one Khorn sounds ok, there are several ways to check the phasing to the other one. Just move the balance control from left to right. The bass should pick up [add] in the center. If the sound level drops the two speakers [bass bin's] are out of phase.

If you want to check one Khorn bin to be in phase with the top section, this use of a dpdt switch can give the results of switching wires. In the position that adds to level, the speaker is in phase with itself. You can also use the dpdt switch to test for one speaker in relation to the other. It happens with a flip on the switch. You don't have to unscrew, and reconnect. chris

I should be able to do that tonight through the Denon adjusting leveling and balance while in 2 channel mode. Thanks for the very helpful idea. This is something I should have done six months ago when Audyessy identified a possible polarity problem. I just then flipped the - and + wires in the back of the Denon (even though I know I had them right coming off of the crossover at the time). Audyssey cleared the problem with the simple wire switch in the back of the Denon and continued on, so I never thought about it again until the polarity question got raised in this thread. Considering when I recapped, I did not look closely at the crossover jumpers, just assumed no previous owner may have played with them. There must be some polarity issue, since Audyseey caught it and I am 100% confident that I had the pos/neg wires from the crossover terminals to the AVR correct before running Audyssey and it caught the problem. So, not checking carefully the crossover on my pre-owned then, has led me to backtrack and do more homework with you all's help now. Should have done it then. I have now been caught short cutting checking out new-to-me preowned electronic equipment before plugging it up. A little embarrassing, but safe lesson while I am still on the steep learning curve, bringing my previous purchases up to speed.

[Rhetor]

thanks Chris.

what Colter said about mods vs upgrades

Done and done . . . Pretty simple, but great advice. The search feature has helped me immensely, especially the years as an infrequent poster. Some thread titles were clear as the change you all are,are suggesting, and some were muddled/confusing (like my original title title for this thread).

[Mighty Favog]

Reading through the thread I was hoping someone was going to bring up room size. I calculated my livingroom as only able to go down to about 38 Hz. but yet my Cornscalas can go lower (like Khorns I just pushed them up against the wall/corner as far as possible).

But I havn't seen it mentioned yet that the LaScalas roll off around 50Hz so if your looking for deeper bass than that from them.....

[Rhetor]

Reading through the thread I was hoping someone was going to bring up room size. I calculated my livingroom as only able to go down to about 38 Hz. but yet my Cornscalas can go lower (like Khorns I just pushed them up against the wall/corner as far as possible).

But I havn't seen it mentioned yet that the LaScalas roll of around 50Hz so if your looking for deeper bass than that from them.....

Yeah, I knew the La Scalas were much higher on the low end . . . This all started me thinking after reading a recent post by a well-established member that he got more bass out of his Heritage speakers when he changed to some aftermarket crossovers . . . More and more, I am convinced my expectations should be lowered and my checking out the details, like a polarity check, and tweaking a few settings is what I need . . . In the end, I am after the vintage sound, so staying pretty much stock . . . Just was considering a crossover change if it were to merit enough benefit for the cash. I have enough other things to check for now . . . Got done with work late and am now looking for the energy to URL the k-horns out . . . Maybe tomorrow.

[McMiRA]

Any chance it's the room and not the system? Assuming correct polarity or even offsets, maybe the room itself is cross canceling. Maybe it's time for some room treatment.

[Marvel]

Obviously I am on a steep learning curve still, and I sincerely appreciate the direction. My corners are in a log cabin . . . So the K-horns are tucked tight in there with the pipe foam tightly sealing them against the logs which are straight and true, and have filler between the logs making for a hard straight surface like a wall.

Are you over in Carrolton now?

That's where JC is located. Just thinking... if he ever had time for a visit, he has some sweet gear.

Bruce

[Rhetor]

Let's remember what caps do in simple crossover networks (like the A and AA). They filter sound going to the midrange and tweeters. To simplify, aging capacitors gain in resistance, which in essence turns down the volume in the HF components. So doing a cap swap on a network would turn UP the hf, which may lead to the impression that there is LESS bass. Yes I've done this and heard the result. So let's really thing about what we're doing (generally speaking, not speaking directly to OP here) before we go charging into a speaker cabinet swapping out parts.

You called it, Colter. Finally got around to cleaning up and putting a needle in an old phono table. Pulled out some new to me vinyl I just purchased,from a forum member. Put the vinyl on and set it to 2 channel (without a sub). Played some albums (70s music) and did Christopher's suggestion of listening to the left and right speakers each alone,,. then balanced together in stereo . . . And there it was . . Bass out of the K-horns! You were right; it was there all the time. The recap Zi did, increased the HF output, making it seem like I had lost bass . . . But, no, the better performing HF made is only "seem" I had had low end problems. I recapped the zk-horns 3 days,after I picked them up, so I had not listened to much before the recap when the bass seemed so strong (in comparison to a weak HF situation. Post cap made it seem,Zi lost bass, when in reality both K-horns are working great in my HT. I heard things on those old 12"ers I had never heard before, and with plenty of low end. Thanks, Colter, for the help--has prevented,me,from buying parts,,which for now, I do not need. Thanks to everybody who contributed thoughts. You helped me think it through with a,positive and free result. Guess had better go ahead and recap may basement shop K-horns with the parts money saved. Thanks all!

[Rhetor]

Obviously I am on a steep learning curve still, and I sincerely appreciate the direction. My corners are in a log cabin . . . So the K-horns are tucked tight in there with the pipe foam tightly sealing them against the logs which are straight and true, and have filler between the logs making for a hard straight surface like a wall.

Are you over in Carrolton now?

That's where JC is located. Just thinking... if he ever had time for a visit, he has some sweet gear.

Bruce

Thanks, Bruce . . . I am only 30 minutes from Carrollton . . . Maybe I will get invited sometime to take a peek. I am sure,he could,coach me forward in my steep learning curve. :-)

[Axz Hout]

b

[Rhetor]

Thanks,Christopher . . . Vinyl is what I was raised on in the 70s . . . Very comforting feel. Now, My next leap may be a tube amp . . . Trying to learn.