Horn vs direct bass, how is it different?

[MikeFord]

A good room can make magic.

[Edgar]

... a tapped horn is up to the challenge.

While I agree with your subjective assessment of tapped horns, my pedantic side forces me to point out that a tapped horn is not so much a horn as a variant on the tapered quarter-wave pipe (TQWP) concept. In fact, tapped horn, TQWP, "transmission line", "acoustic labyrinth", "Transflex", and "Air Coupler" are all variations on the same theme.

And, properly executed, they sound really good, too.

[DizRotus]

... a tapped horn is up to the challenge.

While I agree with your subjective assessment of tapped horns, my pedantic side forces me to point out that a tapped horn is not so much a horn as a variant on the tapered quarter-wave pipe (TQWP) concept. In fact, tapped horn, TQWP, "transmission line", "acoustic labyrinth", "Transflex", and "Air Coupler" are all variations on the same theme.

And, properly executed, they sound really good, too.

I agree the TQWP variant description applies. Nonetheless, in terms of distortion, efficiency, etc. a tapped horn is closer to a true horn than it is to a direct radiator, and better able to integrate into a horn based system than a direct radiator. And while not small, they are small by comparison to a true horn system able to do what they can do.

[DizRotus]

"It's all now in a new place, huge room, it dwarfs what you heard before. My "coffee table" is now standing up in a corner of an 18x24 loft inside of an 18x45 foot room. It goes to 15 Hz. easily. Anyone who has hear this latest setup, same speakers, new room, has commented on the definition, TRANSIENT response, depth, etc. of the bass and the total lack of boominess."

Have you moved? I don't recall any "huge" rooms or lofts in your condo. I'd like to hear how it sounds. It's hard to imagine it sounding better than it did before, but if you say it does, I believe it.

[ClaudeJ1]

... a tapped horn is up to the challenge.

While I agree with your subjective assessment of tapped horns, my pedantic side forces me to point out that a tapped horn is not so much a horn as a variant on the tapered quarter-wave pipe (TQWP) concept. In fact, tapped horn, TQWP, "transmission line", "acoustic labyrinth", "Transflex", and "Air Coupler" are all variations on the same theme.

And, properly executed, they sound really good, too.

Have you built any of these you speak of, Mr. Edgar?

Danley is the most prolific new speaker designer out there and there's a reason why his sub woofers all Tapped Horns and blow away all others. My friend built 3 spuds of his home HT and they will separate the flesh from your bones on the right material.

My one tapped horn sounds subterranean and works seamlessly for music or movies. Had twin VMPS large subs with lots and lots of cones. No comparison to a single LAB 12 in my tapped horn, which can be built with only 2 sheets of plywood cut into a mere 11 pieces.

[Edgar]

Have you built any of these you speak of, Mr. Edgar?

Do I have to build them in order to appreciate them? Why the challenging tone? I said that they sound really good.

[CECAA850]

My friend built 3 spuds of his home HT and they will separate the flesh from your bones on the right material.

I'll bet you a Lab 12 driver they won't[].

[ClaudeJ1]

Have you built any of these you speak of, Mr. Edgar?

Do I have to build them in order to appreciate them? Why the challenging tone? I said that they sound really good.

Not knowing your experiences I thought you might have built some. Didn't mean to sound like you think it did. You appeared to be the rightful challenger on this thread, not me.

Specifically, which ones sound good to you?

[Audio Android]

My friend built 3 spuds of his home HT and they will separate the flesh from your bones on the right material.

I'll bet you a Lab 12 driver they won't.

CECAA.....I don't mean to derail this thread...... But CECAA850 I have to ask you from my experience of this forum you have built more horn loaded subs than anyone else and yet you don't have a horn loaded sub in your main system by the looks of your profile. The IB sub you have......I'm new to this IB thing and really don't have a clue.....Is your sub in room....Or are you venting it in from somewhere else. I've seen you write that the WAF factor is great and that is doesn't take up that much space.....How the he!! is that possible with 4--18's....I've just been super curious about your main sub....and this whole infinite baffle...enclosure? Can you give me a clue ...or a link... or a...PICTURE... or something??

[Edgar]

Not knowing your experiences I thought you might have built some. Didn't mean to sound like you think it did.

My apologies. A limitation of the written word is the inability to convey intonation, like the difference between "confrontational" and "curious". I misconstrued your intent.

Specifically, which ones sound good to you?

My experience with TQWP woofers has been casual; I have never really listened critically to multiple examples under controlled conditions. But I have always been impressed by what I heard. So I have no specific recommendations, sorry.

[Edgar]

[i'm new to this IB thing and really don't have a clue.

Cult of the Infinitely Baffled

[CECAA850]

My friend built 3 spuds of his home HT and they will separate the flesh from your bones on the right material.

I'll bet you a Lab 12 driver they won't.

CECAA.....I don't mean to derail this thread...... But CECAA850 I have to ask you from my experience of this forum you have built more horn loaded subs than anyone else and yet you don't have a horn loaded sub in your main system by the looks of your profile. The IB sub you have......I'm new to this IB thing and really don't have a clue.....Is your sub in room....Or are you venting it in from somewhere else. I've seen you write that the WAF factor is great and that is doesn't take up that much space.....How the he!! is that possible with 4--18's....I've just been super curious about your main sub....and this whole infinite baffle...enclosure? Can you give me a clue ...or a link... or a...PICTURE... or something??

I've got a good pic around here somewhere that I posted in the HT area but I can't seem to find it. I'll post this one for now, you'll get the idea.

I built the IB before I went on my horn loaded build tear and in all honesty, I don't believe I'd change it today given all I've learned. My living room is about 20' x 21' with a peaked ceiling, lots of cubic feet to fill. There are 3 LARGE walk through doors, so there's no way the room will pressurize but I've still measured a corrected 110 dB @ 10Hz at the listening position which is 14' from the drivers. I like it as it doesn't take up any floorspace, goes lower than just about anything out there, blends perfectly with my mains and is very clean. I had Dave Mallette over to listen to some organ music that he provided. He's got a pretty good ear and he absolutely loved it. He said it was as if there were no speakers at all, just the organ and that the IB didn't call attention to itself at all. It was as if the mains were bottomless.

That being said, it's not practical for everyone and every application. You have to be willing to cut into a wall/floor/ceiling. You need a large back space for the drivers. It's more expensive than a horn or box build. You can't move it once it's in. You can't take it with you if you move.

I still have horn subs in and around the house. My daughter has a 25Hz tapped horn in her bedroom. I have a BFM front loaded horn in my bedroom and a BFM Table tuba on my back porch. I REALLY like them all.

(You can click the pic a couple times to enlarge it and see it better)

[jacksonbart]

So tricky to say, as bass is so room dependant, different strokes for different folks I guess. Because commercial sub units use horns does not mean they will sound the best in "your" room, or am I saying I prefer none ported designs or direct stuff more. It jus takes time and money to review the options.

[CECAA850]

HERE'S the other pic.

I actually wanted to cover them with speaker cloth and my wife said she liked the way they looked without it!

[CECAA850]

Discussion starts toward the bottom of the page on THIS thread.

[MikeFord]

HERE'S the other pic.

I actually wanted to cover them with speaker cloth and my wife said she liked the way they looked without it!

Carl, very nice looking and I could so do that, but what about the huge amount of bass coming off the back side, where does it go and how does it not drive the inhabitants of that area nuts?

I live in a condo complex of duplex (one shared wall) townhouses (multilevel, as in 4 half stories for us). No modification outside without board approval (ie no modifications outside), but the design of my fireplace has a metal box in the middle of an 8' wide extension to the exterior of the living room, and the depth with clearance for the fireplace is around 2 ft. It extends several feet above the roofline. Its a BIG empty box with nothing but a 8 or 10 inch chimney pipe in the middle. Unfortunately the construction of the exterior walls around it is strictly the bare minimum for weather, tyvec over the wood framing, and a layer of siding, so bass would propagate rather freely to all neighbors.

If I could get inside that area for a few days the potential is great, but I might have to do all the access by going through an interior wall between the framing, which sounds like very little fun, but not out of question when you consider it would move a huge box outside of the living room. Acoustic suspension with a big, but smaller than sealing and reinforcing the walls inside the space, box might work better than IB. Better for the neighbors anyway.

[CECAA850]

For some reason, the attic insulation seems to eat up most of the rear wave. From outside, it sounds like distant thunder, just a low rumble. It's really not that loud. My sub on the back patio is more of a neighborhood nuisance I would think.

[NCBlueTJ]

CECAA,

Could you please expand a bit more on the difference in sound between a tapped horn and infinite baffle? I am currently looking for some sub woofage for my system, and I would like to go with one of these two options. Which would you say has the "cleaner" sound? Which is capable of going lower? Louder? Does one require more eq than the other? What about placement issues? My IB would have to be in the back of my room, about 20' from my mains (La Scalas), and about 10-12 feet behind the listening position. Would this result in poor integration with my mains?

Sorry to hit you with all of these questions, its just that you are one of few that I have found that has heard both. Owners of both of these type subs usually sing the praises of their particular setup, but most have only compared to a traditional box sub. Thanks

[CECAA850]

From everything I've read over at the "Cult", you wouldn't be a candidate for an IB due to it's location behind you.

[DrWho]

Even Keele's article on horns vs. vented enclosures was not comparing sound quality, but rather relative volumes--a subject that I'm not really not that interested in (...but the "small speaker crowd" IS interested). Quality of sound usually is overlooked in these type of discussions.

Would you not agree that there is often correlation between maximum output and output linearity?

For example, a single driver with X radiating surface area requires a certain excursion to achieve its maximum SPL. If another system is able to exceed or match that maximum SPL, then is not the excursion less? Or rather, is it not easier for that louder system to be linear at the lower SPL requirement?

Btw, the excursion reduction of a horn loaded system is a function of the compression ratio. The rest of the horn is there to make sure that compression gets impedance matched. So if you're running 8:1 at the throat, then you're gonna want 8x the Sd. Do you remember what the Jubilee compression is? The Sd of that 12" is probably around 100 sq in, and the throat is what, 2x6? That'd put you at around 8'ish. Four 15's would be around 600 sq in total, versus the excursion equivalent of 1600 from the Jubilee. So that's what, 2.5x the excursion on those 15's? Would that be 6dB more IMD products?

However, what's misleading with those numbers is that the Jubilee isn't perfectly impedance matched....and for me personally, those resulting resonances are not acceptable. Also, the 15's in 1/8th space are seeing 9dB of pressure gain from the walls....so now we're talking 3dB less IMD. Even coupled to the corner, the Jub LF still isn't perfectly impedance matched. At the end of the day, it would be possible for the IMD's to be very similar (because your'e not seeing 9dB extra output from the Jub LF horn).

The dominant difference in my opinion is the polar lobing - which is "bad" for both the Jub LF and the Quad 15's.

I also think the reason that the Jub LF sounded more dynamic is because we were listening to source material that benefited from the peaking/resonant response of the Jub LF bass bin. I can find quality source material that sounds horrible on the Jub LF that will sound much better on the Quad 15's. Heck, my single 15"at home can sound better (listening at low enough levels that the IMD's are buried beneathe the noise floor). You can't avoid the resonances from an undersized horn.

I would also suggest that the idea of pressure vessel gain will impedance match better to a direct radiator, whereas a horn (especially tapped) will see little to no benefit. In other words, PVG behaves very much in the same way as the compression chamber.