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Bang & Olufsen does it...


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BEO puts the amps with the speakers themselves. Done this way in A Klipsch Heritage like the LS would a person just have a preamp and send signal directly to each monoblock amp via RCA's? In a LS, Belle, or K-horn there would be room for an amp.

What would be the advantages and disadvantages of mounting monoblocks in these?

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I don't see the reason to stuff an amp directly onto any component speaker. None, nada, zippo.

Boomboxes and clock/radios sure.

Lot's of reasons not to? I gotta wonder why BEO is on that bandwagon. They make some pretty good stuff. [:)] I suppose with a little research I could find out why they think it's so important...

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Lot's of reasons not to? I gotta wonder why BEO is on that bandwagon. They make some pretty good stuff. Smile I suppose with a little research I could find out why they think it's so important...

There are a number of reasons why they should. B&O produce IcePower amplifiers which are small, clean and powerful. They would fit in a speaker box just fine.

Additionally when doing self powered speakers, they could put the correct wattage behind each driver with an electronic crossover along with contouring. With that you have done away with the passive crossover, smothed the frequency response, and gone to electronic crossovers (but with no fiddling) with all of the pluses of a multi-amplifier / bi-tri-quad amp setup. IcePower makes this very compelling.

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IcePower sounds good to me, but that doesn't mean everyone will else will like it.

A complex system now becomes more complex. Unless you do something stupid, loudspeakers normally run for a long time without any kind of maintenance. You now invite a host of additional potential issues which could make for owning and running a loudspeaker company a nightmare.

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IcePower sounds good to me, but that doesn't mean everyone will else will like it.

A complex system now becomes more complex. Unless you do something stupid, loudspeakers normally run for a long time without any kind of maintenance. You now invite a host of additional potential issues which could make for owning and running a loudspeaker company a nightmare.

DeanG,

You are correct. Companies that do this walk a thin line.

I once had a set of Altec 511B speakers with tri-amps built in. Just plug them in with a set of RCA's and done. A major selling point for some folks. A nightmare to get fixed when one of the bass amplifiers was going.

IcePower does sound good to many people, but as you say, not for everyone. I also talked to a technician who had to fix a Pioneer SC-1222 I purchased and he implied the D3 amplifiers were like Ice. If something goes it is very hard and expensive to fix. Add that into a several hundred pound speaker to get serviced and forget it.

People in this Klipsch forum are tinkerers and the plug and play nature of the B&O would never suffice.

B&O is about style and quality http://www.bang-olufsen.com/en-US/sound/loudspeakers/beolab-5 and http://www.bang-olufsen.com/en-US/sound .

I'm not sure how they sound but some folks like the concept, along with Meridian who also builds the DSP into their loudspeakers - the digital world. I would not want to pay to get one fixed. http://www.meridian-audio.com/en/collections/products/dsp7200-digital-active-loudspeaker/22/technology .

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Lot's of reasons not to? I gotta wonder why BEO is on that bandwagon. They make some pretty good stuff. Smile I suppose with a little research I could find out why they think it's so important...

For exactly the reason Dean pointed out for starters. It's not that there's reasons not to, but rather is there any substantial reason to do so? That's my take.

Noise rejection? Tri amping with less cable mess? There's other ways to skin those cats too.

B&O's target customer typically doesn't want a pile of discrete components.

They entrust the company to wholly provide a single-purchase audio solution. They want something they can plug in, turn on, look okay, sound okay, and be done with it. It's typically a pocket book fashion statement. The user doesn't want to (correction: can't) mess around with it, and when it no longer jives with their feng shui "flavor-of-the-day", it's ditched.

Placing all the drive electronics in the speakers themselves, as is the latest BeoLab 5 and 9 systems, serves no functional purpose as it is currently marketed. As if to say it is "better" only because doing so is different. They can be placed in the speaker, on a rack, in the walls...doesn't matter.

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I just picked up a ton of B&O stuff last year and as cool as it looks, its lust too hard to get a "moving" musical experience from such small drivers. I will say it is impressive just how much sound they do get out of such small speakers and cabinets. Also, from what I can gather, everything is built very well. The two remotes I have can very easily double duty as police baton's.

BTW, Im not overly impressed by the clarity of the ICE amps. I have a full class D setup in my SUV as well and I dont think it is near a good as a class A /AB amp......maybe in 10 years the tech will catch up, but not now.

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That sort of thing has been going on in the pro sound world for years now, with both studio monitors and live sound speakers that have built in electronics. These powered, or active, speakers have many advantages over non-powered versions. They are biamped with the amplifiers perfectly matched to the drivers in the loudspeakers, and the internal DSPs configured with optimal crossover points, delays, PEQs, and limiters. Here is a popular model that can be used for either monitor duty or main PA speakers:

http://www.qscaudio.com/products/speakers/k_series/k_series_k12.php

I recently heard some of these and they sounded really good, especially considering their size. The sound engineer running the PA said they were impossible to blow up and the setup time was much quicker than with passive speakers and an amp rack. Several years ago I heard a pair of active Genelec studio monitors that sounded amazing.

Yes, you have to run AC power to the active speakers along with a line level cable to the input. The active loudspeakers are usually not favored for installations where the speakers are flown, as maintenence is more difficult if something goes wrong with the electronics. This will not be a big problem with home use, however, and I believe there will be more active loudspeakers made for home use in the future. There are many subwoofers with built in amps and electronic crossovers for home use that are already available.

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They are biamped with the amplifiers perfectly matched to the drivers in the loudspeakers, and the internal DSPs configured with optimal crossover points, delays, PEQs, and limiters.

The hardware doesn't have to be mounted directly in the speaker in order to be considered optimized.

The way I see it, that type of clever packaging simply guarantees that any idealized componentry will travel with a product throughout its useful life. Nothing beyond that. [:^)] In the pro-sound world, that protects the manufactures' mark of quality (what ever that is at the time) to a certain extent, leaving less and less to the technicians to err during deployment.

That's great and dandy..so long as their product is superior across all the inclusive metrics for the present and foreseeable future.

IMHO, That's a pretty tall glass to fill. [:S]

There are many subwoofers with built in amps and electronic crossovers for home use that are already available.

By what right does this practice indicate that it is optimal for the end user?
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They are biamped with the amplifiers perfectly matched to the drivers in the loudspeakers, and the internal DSPs configured with optimal crossover points, delays, PEQs, and limiters.

The hardware doesn't have to be mounted directly in the speaker in order to be considered optimized.

It doesn't but mounting optimized electronics inside the loudspeaker box makes for a neater and more rugged package, unlike an outboard amp rack with it's associated cabling. It would be a turnkey solution and eliminate the need of the buyer to biamp, measure, and align the system.

The way I see it, that type of clever packaging simply guarantees that any idealized componentry will travel with a product throughout its useful life. Nothing beyond that.

And how would that be a problem?

In the pro-sound world, that protects the manufactures' mark of quality (what ever that is at the time) to a certain extent, leaving less and less to the technicians to err during deployment.

Exactly. And in the home hifi world that would seem to be of greater benefit considering the technical capability of the average audio hobbyist is not at the level of a pro sound engineer, who moves sound equipment into different locations on a regular basis and is used to doing that sort of thing. The simpler setup of the powered speaker does reduce the likelihood of hookup errors.

There are many subwoofers with built in amps and electronic crossovers for home use that are already available.

By what right does this practice indicate that it is optimal for the end user?

What that indicates is that manufacturers of home audio equipment are already installing amplifiers in subwoofer loudspeakers so that is not exactly a novel or untested approach with regard to consumer audio.

I'm not saying that anyone has to buy a powered loudspeaker and powered speakers may not be the best choice for many of us. Some of us like to try different amplifiers and swap things around from time to time, but it would be nice for the home audio enthusiast to have the option of a properly engineered biamped and time aligned speaker available in a neater package, perhaps at a lower cost than separate amps, cables, and speakers.

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BTW, Im not overly impressed by the clarity of the ICE amps. I have a full class D setup in my SUV as well and I dont think it is near a good as a class A /AB amp......maybe in 10 years the tech will catch up, but not now.

I hope you are not comparing your SUV setup to a high end home system running something like IcePower 1000 ASP or other Class D based amps against. Component, especially speaker matching is key, just as with a tube amp. B&O could have solved that pretty easily. The IcePower and like amps might not compare to amps 5 times more expensive but they are now getting a following with people who didn't want to believe they could be that good.

BTW, one of the original complaints is that they are too clear except for on the very highest octave. Definitely not a tube amp but some consider that tubes add their own sound to the music anyway. We just like that sound.

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I didn't know that B&O is used multiple amps in each speaker. I assumed they were simply installing the amp and a network.

I agree that most Klipsch folk don't want to lose the ability to tinker. What fun would that be? On the other hand, it would be very cool if for fun somebody made a tri-amp to replace a network. I wonder how big it would be as compared to a normal Heritage network. I guess I need to look up Ice amps.

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And how would that be a problem?

When said clever packaging resembles a pissed-off traffic cone with a serious case of sunburn...and levies a ridiculously steep entrance fee.

Not to mention it's also a problem when I have to continually ward off people that are convinced they have "bought" good sound as if it is a tangible item that FedEx simply delivers to their doorstep.

The simpler setup of the powered speaker does reduce the likelihood of hookup errors.

And how does this positively effect you, me, and everyone else here that actually has a clue what they're doing? I'm just saying, power users shouldn't condone the trend of integration at the expense of useful features...notably those features that expand versatility.

...it would be nice for the home audio enthusiast to have the option of a properly engineered biamped and time aligned speaker available in a neater package, perhaps at a lower cost than separate amps, cables, and speakers

That already exists. Using a VRM DSP in combination with a $30 set of earbuds and someone can have quite possibly the finest low-level playback system at any price.

No one will believe it unless it was marketed as esoteric or premium. [|-)]

I wonder how big it would be as compared to a normal Heritage network.

Considering the size of current amplifier daughter cards and the power requirements for the Heritage speakers, I'd wager no larger than our existing networks. [Y]
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I wonder how big it would be as compared to a normal Heritage network.

Considering the size of current amplifier daughter cards and the power requirements for the Heritage speakers, I'd wager no larger than our existing networks. Yes

Actually the size, power, and heat dissipation requirements are very low. Tri-amp with DSP in the size of a K-horn crossover. The unfortunate part of the B&O amps are that the bigger you go, the better that most people think they sound. Nobody will want to believe that you should run a K-horn with 1000 watts per side.

Any way, you can do serious optimization and just plug in a power cord and RCA/Balance connector. That wouldn't be as much fun as our DIY stuff we do. Then again, I don't think I would DIY with this http://www.bang-olufsen.com/en-US/car-audio/car-models/aston-martin

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I suppose a company could simply offer two versions of the same loudspeaker, powered and conventional. The company still assumes a lot of additional risk with the powered stuff, it's a pain in the rear when things go sideways. How about troubleshooting that mess over the phone, I bet that's fun. Anyone remember the RP-3s, or LF-10 subwoofers? Granted, this stuff has come a long way since then, but end users are normally very short on patience if you can't get them up and running. Having Tier 1 Tech Support telling you the problem is either with an amp module or somewhere within the DSP circuitry isn't what you want to hear.

It's funny that someone brought up the receptacle issue. I've had so much stuff go through here that I actually forgot I tried a pair of the larger Behringer two-ways with on-board power. Like a total dunce, I didn't realize until I got them home and unboxed that I I realized I was going to have to use a 20 foot extension cord for the right speaker. BTW, those things are a steal, they sound unbelievably good for the money. I only took them back because really, once your ears get dialed in to the horn sound, it's really hard to go back. I'd love to hear the QSC or JBL stuff -- if QSC is using the same amplifier technologly that they're using in their PLX series of amps, I would imagine that sounding very very good. But ...

After I bought my Jubilees, I was very short on money (imagine that). I started with two Crown XTi amplifiers. I caught a lot of heat because I said they sounded good. I ran them without a preamp, and just used the gain controls. Yes, there was some hiss, but I'm just one of those people that can get used to almost anything if it doesn't just sound plain bad :) In my world, it's simply varying degrees of "good". The only time I had an issue with this set up was when I wanted to listen late in the evenings at low levels, which ended up having to happen more and more as time went on - those amps just didn't do well for that. So, though it was pretty cool being able to just drop all of Roy's settings into the units and letting them rip, the system was limited in its ability to deliver a high degree of musicality over their operating range. I didn't have the money to buy an EV unit, preamp, and two nice amps - so I decided to go the passive route with an integrated. Part of the decision was influenced by what I'd heard in Hope, and for whatever reason, I just preferred the sound of the passives in a head on comparison. The passives pretty much emptied my checking account, so I decided to temporarily power everything with a Super-T chip amp. You know, to this day, I still consider that to be one of the best sounds I ever had in my room. That temporary solution lasted a long time. I just wasn't into listening loud anymore, so the good five watt thing worked for me.

So, to a large degree I actually agree with Don - I totally get where he's coming from. You could buy some very expensive loudspeakers and they would be powered with some comparitively speaking - relatively inexpensive electronics, netting some really "good" sound. However, this solution, while being perfectly acceptable to most, would be anathema to many, and here's why: the conventional approach more times than not just stomps all over it. IcePower sounds "good", Hypex sounds "good", Tripath sounds "good" and DSP sounds "good" too -- but those technologies just don't deliver at the same level as some expect or are used to. End to end digital sounds mechanical and contrived in comparison, but I guess if you're listening at 120dB, it doesn't matter much.

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So, to a large degree I actually agree with Don - I totally get where he's coming from.

And in large part, so do I...although I'm probably coming off otherwise in prose.

With respect to B&O's approach, that's definitely not my bag, but I'm not saying that I feel that component integration doesn't have its place. In fact, I rely on it in my amps.

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