Why bother with tweeters with treble extension?

[garyrc]

Some loudspeaker manufacturers take pains to design tweeters that go out to around 24K or more.

v.s.

The instuctions that come with frequency processors urge rolled off highs, from the old Crown parametric equalizer to Audyssey. Audyssey advocates -2 db or so at 10K, and about - 6 dB at 20K.

What's going on?

[russ69]

Some loudspeaker manufacturers take pains to design tweeters that go out to around 24K or more. ...What's going on?

If you design a tweter to be flat at 20khz, it usually will run past that frequency before it starts dropping off. I have no clue why anyone would want to kill the tweeter at 20,000 hz or below.

[derrickdj1]

Most of us can't hear up to 20K? Most people in there 40-50's loose hearing in the higher frequency range.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Equalize everything flat out to 20khz and you will see why the rolloff is recommended. Not pleasant at all. Called the "X curve.

But no FR above 6 Khz (X-over point for most heritage) may not sound very good either so you will want to keep your tweeters.

[Quiet_Hollow]

Equalize everything flat out to 20khz and you will see why the rolloff is recommended. Not pleasant at all. Called the "X curve.

But no FR above 6 Khz (X-over point for most heritage) may not sound very good either so you will want to keep your tweeters.

^^^ Well said.

[garyrc]

Equalize everything flat out to 20khz and you will see why the rolloff is recommended. Not pleasant at all.

That's true with program material with distorted highs, but I've heard many recordings without deliberate roll-off on playback, on many speakers, that sounded quite pleasant, including back in the day when my hearing went out to 20KHz. These days, I choose between Audyssey Flat and regular Audyssey (their reference curve with rolloffI). I usually prefer Audyssey Flat, but it's easy to find bad recordings that I need to cut down to regular Audyssey. Family and friends with younger ears usually agree with my choices of which recordings need the rolloff.

Speakers and real rooms (at least mine) without Audyssey usually roll-off (to a degree) above about 10 or 12K anyway.

Stereophile rarely seems to mention that a speaker that needs additional roll-off in the reviewer's listening room.

[tube fanatic]

Given how rotten so many modern recordings are I've been getting increasing requests to install switchable high frequency filters in my amps to roll off the response. Many users of Heritage and Reference series speakers have been complaining that their ears are "bleeding" when listening to such recordings! Even some SET users now want that option..........

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Speakers and real rooms (at least mine) without Audyssey usually roll-off (to a degree) above about 10 or 12K anyway.

No an expert here, but I do not use an EQ, and my room is rolling off the highs. My 44 year old ears like the sound. I had used a Behringer DEQ2496 years ago and when equalized to be flat (negating the room roll off) the system sounded bright and awful. When using the mic and dialing in a rolloff it sounded good.

My gear does not have Audyssey or any tone controls so I am not familiar with its use.

[djk]

Recordings made in a large hall with the mics in the audience like flat response.

Close mic'd recordings sound better with some roll-off, but the treble should extend all the way out, just with a gentle roll-off.

Small speakers with no bass sound better with some HF roll-off. If your LF starts to roll at 100hz, try gently rolling off the HF above 4Khz or so (like the Auratone cubes).

[sunnysal]

my subjective observations; while I agree that LEVEL should roll off slowly at the high end to keep the music from sounding strident, the EXTENSION should extend as high as possible. Not sure why but in systems where super tweeters were installed I sensed some more "air". could it be harmonics? I don´t know why, but that is what I heard. So roll off a bit but get that extension as high as possible. YMMV. Warm regards, Tony

btw remember the equal loudness curves:

[JBryan]

My take is that while most humans can't hear frequencies above 20-22kHz and many can't hear above 16-18kHz, we can hear the interaction of the higher frequencies through harmonics with the lower range. Tweeters and super tweeters that can go past 40-50 kHz put out frequencies that can sympathetically enhance and energize the lower frequencies thus adding the detail and 'air' we can actually hear.

[sunnysal]

My take is that while most humans can't hear frequencies above 20-22kHz and many can't hear above 16-18kHz, we can hear the interaction of the higher frequencies through harmonics with the lower range. Tweeters and super tweeters that can go past 40-50 kHz put out frequencies that can sympathetically enhance and energize the lower frequencies thus adding the detail and 'air' we can actually hear.

[Y]

[Daddy Dee]

JBryan, thanks for your explanation. I knew something was going on when listening to new tweeters with more HF extension.

Even though the extension was beyond what i could hear, there is still some impact enhancing harmonics that i can hear.

disclaimer: i still could be crazy.

[derrickdj1]

My take is that while most humans can't hear frequencies above 20-22kHz and many can't hear above 16-18kHz, we can hear the interaction of the higher frequencies through harmonics with the lower range. Tweeters and super tweeters that can go past 40-50 kHz put out frequencies that can sympathetically enhance and energize the lower frequencies thus adding the detail and 'air' we can actually hear.

There is not that much energy in that part of the frequency spectrum. Can most people really detect the interaction of harmonics with things in the lower part of the spectrum?

[Turbox]

Most of us can't hear up to 20K? Most people in there 40-50's loose hearing in the higher frequency range.

What?

[Mongo171]

Most of us can't hear up to 20K? Most people in there 40-50's loose hearing in the higher frequency range.

What?

And...some people can't see in that freq range, apparently! [:^)]

[WMcD]

Well, about hearing.

As lad I was able to hear the ultrasonic alarm system in the local A&S. It was probably 17 kHz. As I recall, it used little trapezoidal horns! Turning my head, the peaks and nodes were apparent.

Just today I found I could detect 15 kHz on a Samsung Note II playing Sgt Pepper's MP3 on Sony earphones. The Klipsch have been misplaced, someplace.

Interesting story:

As you may know, Lennon put about two seconds of 15 kHz at the end of Sgt. Pepper's just before the run out track. This reportedly was to get a reaction from dogs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sgt._Pepper%27s_Lonely_Hearts_Club_Band

If you wish to investigate, I suggest you play the last track on a computer running the Windows Media Player set to "bars" display. It is RTA display. You'll see the high freq bars go to max. The audio to me sounds like mostly noise, but there.

You can experiment to determine whether your speakers and ears are up to the job. Smile. Is this extreme limit really giving us information in music? I'll let you judge.

My guess is that 15 kHz was about the limit of record cutters at the time of Sgt Pepper's, and tape units too.

Have some fun.

WMcD

I

[Mongo171]

The big horns have a freq response up to 17KHz.

[mark1101]

My take is that while most humans can't hear frequencies above 20-22kHz and many can't hear above 16-18kHz, we can hear the interaction of the higher frequencies through harmonics with the lower range. Tweeters and super tweeters that can go past 40-50 kHz put out frequencies that can sympathetically enhance and energize the lower frequencies thus adding the detail and 'air' we can actually hear.

What amp are you using that plays audibly out to 40-50Khz?

[sunnysal]

most modern hifi amplifiers are flat to 50kHz and just reach 100kHz (-3dB), audio video components almost always meet the -3 @ 100khz measurement. going up high is not so much an issue of ampliciation as it is whether your source was recorded and can play back at those frequencies and whether the speakers can reproduce them. regards, T