Thoughts on being an Audiophile

[bracurrie]

I think people have become accustomed to more that just junk food. Junk everything.

Dave,

I made a joke of my wife being non discriminating about the quality of sound in music repro, but we spend 8 weeks a summer in a place that has its own opera company, symphony, and ballet company. Its not junk and she gets that. Its funny but the folks that come there would listen to your description of the organ with rapt attention. It makes the rest of the year rubbing elbows with those who could care less much easier.

Oh and we have no television there. []

[skonopa]

The guy says that he can afford to spend even $200/month on audio related purchases without blinking an eye! That's not in the real world in my book! Wish I had that kind of $$$ to throw around each month!!!

It's been my real world experience for a while now. My monthly budget for music has been $200 per month and I try to stretch it as far as possible.

To me, the music is the most important thing, not the gear. I've not read the article, but if audiophile means listening to the gear, not the music, I don't fit that description. It's all about the music. If the only thing I had was an AM radio, I could be happy for a long time. Without the music, the AM radio is worthless to me! YMMV.

Dennie

I am in the same boat! I could easily afford to spend $200+ on audio, although I usually don't, but I wonder if it eventually averages out over the course of the year. There may be several months where I won't buy anything, other than using up my $20/month eMusic subscription, as well as the occasional CD. I would then get an itch and buy a bunch of CDs from either Amazon, Laser's Edge, or Nightmare Records to the tune of a couple hundred. But then comes ProgPower in September and the vendor area, where these labels are all there. Not unheard of me dropping a $1,000 or so on CDs and coming back with a stack of over 30+ titles. This often due to finding many albums that I just cannot find otherwise, such as older, rarer, classics, or getting brand-new albums months before they "street". Ultimately, I found that after the fun of aquiring a good audio system is over, it came down to the REAL reason why I wanted a good audio system in the first place. Discovering and listening to music! Over the years, I've probably nearly spent the cost of the system itself just in getting more music. I found that I am more into the music itself than getting into all the tweaking around of equipment. Maybe I also got lucky as well, as I really love how these RF-7s sound with that B&K amp. Admittedly, having a good system certainly does enhance my enjoyment of the music, though.

BTW, I did read the article, and it certainly does have some good insight. Turned out that I am pretty much in agreement with the article. It certainly helps to do some research, buy the equipment in the budget you are comfortable with having, and enjoy it. With a bit of proper research, anybody can pretty much find something that will fit thier budgets and taste. Unfortunatly, there are those that will pretty much give-up and take the easy way out by just simply going to the Bose store.

[skonopa]

nobody does this anymore. there's a generational phenomenon, noticed even in my own life, where music is merely a background soundtrack to whatever may be happening at the moment. I've got music going nearly all the time. I'll sit with friends around a fire and have Pandora going.. we'll acknowledge a good song here or there, but the focus is not to sit and listen to the music. it's sad. Between that and the $0.99 per song price point, it's probably why my generation (I'm 31) and younger see music as a commodity and not an art form.

It doesn't seem to help that much of what is passed as music on the mainstream these days seems to be geared to whatever actually will sell as a product and will make the most money for the label and maybe even the artist, as opposed to something that I would actually want to sit down to listen and appreciate as an actual artform. Thankfully, there are still plenty of bands/artists in the smaller, independent, underground scene that still seems to treat music as the artform that it actually is.

[RT FAN]

I can't afford to be an audiophile! In a world of multi thousand dollar transports & $10,000 tone arms, I am an odd lotter. What I have is solidly mid-fi equipment bought judiciously, the best piece I could afford, one at time. While I own McIntosh equipment it is used and older than some forum members, but it sounds great to me. What I am is a MUSIC fan! I have a respectable collection of over 2,000 cds that I will continue to build as long as cds are still being pressed. I probably average buying between 50 -75 cds a year.Even if I won the lottery, I would have a hard time buying a pair of $25K mono block amps, but I would have no problem waving in cds by the cartful, & I 'm talking those Costco size wagons!

[Dennie]

I can't afford to be an audiophile! In a world of multi thousand dollar transports & $10,000 tone arms, I am an odd lotter. What I have is solidly mid-fi equipment bought judiciously, the best piece I could afford, one at time. While I own McIntosh equipment it is used and older than some forum members, but it sounds great to me. What I am is a MUSIC fan! I have a respectable collection of over 2,000 cds that I will continue to build as long as cds are still being pressed. I probably average buying between 50 -75 cds a year.Even if I won the lottery, I would have a hard time buying a pair of $25K mono block amps, but I would have no problem waving in cds by the cartful, & I 'm talking those Costco size wagons!

Amen Brother!!!

Dennie

[Chris A]

I can't afford to be an audiophile! In a world of multi thousand dollar transports & $10,000 tone arms, I am an odd lotter. What I have is solidly mid-fi equipment bought judiciously, the best piece I could afford, one at time.

I'm not sure that I would agree...you, like me, have hi-fi equipment that wasn't priced at insane levels to get very questionable returns on investment. That's how I would describe it. However, there are folks that are insulted when things like that are said (including $10K tone arms) Ten thousand bucks worth of digital disks is a lot, lot, lot of music, and, depending on your musical tastes, the digital discs and files will be much cleaner and nicer to listen to, and much less susceptible to noise, dirt, and other forms of degradation. YMMV.

If you look at the stuff that I've accumulated, for instance, the money is in the places that it needs to me, and it isn't in the places it doesn't matter very much. I'm okay with saying that.

There are intelligent ways to get hi-fi, and there are expensive ways to get hi-fi. Your choice.

Chris

[babadono]

And when you start doing this, you will notice things in the music that others don't -- and you will be considered mad.

Yes indeedy do.....When you listen and really listen you will hear things you did not hear before.

babadono

[bracurrie]

There are intelligent ways to get hi-fi, and there are expensive ways to get hi-fi. Your choice.

Chris

And the struggle continues.....[H] Its so much more fun than throwing money at it.[Y]

[skonopa]

Even if I won the lottery, I would have a hard time buying a pair of $25K mono block amps, but I would have no problem waving in cds by the cartful, & I 'm talking those Costco size wagons!

You don't need to spend a bajillion dollars on equipment to be an "audiophile". I am with you in that even if I did win the lottery, I could not bring myself to spend that kind of money on audio gear myself, although I would not mind having a full Palladium 7.1 system, though. []

But, yeah, I am not one of those that will spend 5-digit figures on things like DACs, CD player/transports, etc, not to mention on sillier things like wire/cabling.

I would have no trouble buying plenty more music though. Hell, if I won the lottery, I would be more inclinded to go overseas to some of those open air festivals, as well as see many of my favorite bands in the prog/power metal genre that typically don't play much, if at all, in the US. Why listen to CDs when I can get the actual thing live! []

[aginhouse]

nobody does this anymore. there's a generational phenomenon, noticed even in my own life, where music is merely a background soundtrack to whatever may be happening at the moment. I've got music going nearly all the time. I'll sit with friends around a fire and have Pandora going.. we'll acknowledge a good song here or there, but the focus is not to sit and listen to the music. it's sad. Between that and the $0.99 per song price point, it's probably why my generation (I'm 31) and younger see music as a commodity and not an art form.

It doesn't seem to help that much of what is passed as music on the mainstream these days seems to be geared to whatever actually will sell as a product and will make the most money for the label and maybe even the artist, as opposed to something that I would actually want to sit down to listen and appreciate as an actual artform. Thankfully, there are still plenty of bands/artists in the smaller, independent, underground scene that still seems to treat music as the artform that it actually is.

AMEN.....I have to dig deeeeep to find some music worth actually sitting down to listen to the content. I can appreciate all forms of music but it must be worth a damn.

I feel bad for my daughter. She is one and a half and will most like have pure trash to listen to by the time she is a teenager. I know that art is supposed to be subjective...but come on. What happened to emotion, soul and feeling in music? I have been pushed more towards jazz then ever. Real Instruments!!!!

There is not many out there today that push emotion like Jackson Browne did.

Its real hard to find content the Rolling Stones and Zeppelin. Everything is thin, copied over trash with little to no lyrical content or meaning.

[Quiet_Hollow]

She is one and a half and will most like have pure trash to listen to by the time she is a teenager.

Yikes. An awfully grim statement there.

Good music is out there, always. The days of a good song simply landing in our laps because of radio, TV, or magazine is what has long since past.

I highly recommend Pandora or some of the streaming "radio" stations (Soma.FM and Sky.FM for example) on iTunes or Winamp for suggestions.

And if you think talent is dead in 2013....you need only listen to Candice Glover singing "Somewhere" over a pair of La Scala. [:|][][8] [Y]

[aginhouse]

I know its a rough thing to say. I hope I'm proven wrong.

[derrickdj1]

And if you think talent is dead in 2013....you need only listen to Candice Glover singing "Somewhere" over a pair of La Scala.

Now that is what I call talent!

[bracurrie]

I am now on my second round of trying to integrate a 2 in 4 out audio interface connected to my Mac mini. I called tech support at Apogee for help with my new Duet 2. The guy who answered the phone was very friendly, but he challenged me in a very interesting way. He intimated that I was pretending to be an audiophile.

I was shocked! What in blazes had I said that made him think that? He quickly added that audiophiles never said "I don't know", So maybe I am an audio enthusiast. Why else would I vacillate between analog and digital as if I was searching for the holy grail?. No knowing the answer but enjoying the tech toys as I strive to hear the inaudible. Imagine listening to a Clarinet Concerto and hearing the players breath? Horns baby!

I do know what I like, which is what we all really understand. Occasionally we like to be validated by asking those of us who have more experience or training, but I'll bet that most of us always go back to what we know. Nothing wrong with that. But its the learning that makes it more than just the sound.

I have a problem with the concept of the Audiophile. He knows so much that he gets all caught up trying to understand what he is hearing so he can describe it convincingly enough that I accept his authority. Not.

Cheers

The enthusiast revels in what he doesn't know that he can learn while he cranks it up and enjoys the music.

[Chris A]

...He quickly added that audiophiles never said "I don't know", So maybe I am an audio enthusiast. Why else would I vacillate between analog and digital as if I was searching for the holy grail?.

What I've learned thus far and reconfirmed recently is that, for me, it isn't about the format being digital or analog. It's all about the people and their practices doing the recording and producing. While it is much more difficult to do a good job using analog equipment, by typical practices today, analog is good enough for most people. Like folks that bet on jockeys instead of horses, I look for certain recording and mastering engineers. Then I know the recording will likely be good.

The rest of the story is about what you like to hear on your sound reproducing system: for me, it's to hear exactly what the recording and mastering engineers put on their products - however good or bad that is - without trying to "sweeten the mix" after the fact. If it's a badly done recording, then it's a badly done recording.

What I've found however, is once you get your setup into good shape, the number of recordings that sound good or even just okay actually increases: I just plunk the disc/disk into the playback device and turn up the volume to something approaching concert level--and listen carefully.

Chris

[bracurrie]

I look for certain recording and mastering engineers. Then I know the recording will likely be good.

Someone should start a subforum for sharing observations on recordings good or bad. Because on balance the performance can often be more meaningful than the quality of the recording it would be interesting to note what others think about certain recordings. Its just amazing to me how often I now listen to what sounded good years ago on average equipment that now is just plain tiring. It may be the rip,the download or the mix/mastering. I would also want to know how some might alter the original to make it listenable if EQ is the problem.

The rest of the story is about what you like to hear on your sound reproducing system: for me, it's to hear exactly what the recording and mastering engineers put on their products - however good or bad that is - without trying to "sweeten the mix" after the fact. If it's a badly done recording, then it's a badly done recording.

Case in point Crosby Stills and Nash. The original record was delightful as I remember it. I wore two of those out during college. Now I have a high def digital download that was "remastered" and its so boomy that I put in a low shelf cutting 3db from about 170 Hz down to make it sound how I think I remember it.

Another example is Alan Parsons Project - Tales of Mystery and Imagination. No boom here, but there must either be problem with the mix/mastering or the digital file itself. There are annoying high frequency distortions or artifacts. I guess it could be either. I really enjoy the music but my system now reveals the flaws. Before I go looking for a CD to rip or a place I can download a better resolution digital copy I would love to know if its the mix/mastering that is the problem.

So I guess more than the Just this Minute approach already in place would be discussions centered around certain recordings.

[Chris A]

Someone should start a subforum for sharing observations on recordings good or bad.

I agree, but I find that takes more than one person to contribute in order for it to be fun. I's also point out that many people like different things regarding the sound that they are trying to achieve (like we are discussing on the "Digital vs. Analog" thread. But maybe there is a way to collect into different types of music genres, which may bring like-minded people together.

Because on balance the performance can often be more meaningful than the quality of the recording it would be interesting to note what others think about certain recordings.

Perhaps surprisingly, I have begun to diverge in opinion here. "Good performances" are oftentimes in the ear of the beholder, and different interpretations of say, classical music, sometimes brings different positive experiences, even some of the "poorer performances". However, I find that I tire easily now when presented a poor recording. Perhaps it is years of trying to change bad recordings into good ones: I gave up, and now just try to find another recording that is better. That means that the performances are going to be different. That's okay with me.

The problem, of course, is that popular music isn't typically played by more than one artist, and the recordings available are in fact a fixed set of poor choices. My solution is to change my taste in music to include different genres and titles. If the recording itself was poor, I found that I tolerated the recording for a while, then it collected dust on the shelf. Nowadays, I don't tolerate the recording in the first place. I find something else to listen to. YMMV.

I'm currently collecting the oldest extant recordings of my favorite popular music--those with the highest dynamic range scores--and I'm finding this is working very well. There are a few recordings that don't sound good for other reasons, but I'm willing to take that chance. I've found that the best recordings typically were produced before 1990 (for the music first released before that date). The more dynamic recordings never sound flat to me--sometimes poorly balanced, but otherwise redeemable using EQ. Squashed recordings only sound good when played at comparatively soft levels, IMHO.

Chris

[bracurrie]

Someone should start a subforum for sharing observations on recordings good or bad.

I agree, but I find that takes more than one person to contribute in order for it to be fun. I's also point out that many people like different things regarding the sound that they are trying to achieve (like we are discussing on the "Digital vs. Analog" thread. But maybe there is a way to collect into different types of music genres, which may bring like-minded people together.

I believe there are many here among us whose points of view here would be very interesting. Those of us who have been here a year or more and participate regularly could filter and color opinions as to their source. I would argue against organizing it by genre because I for one like all genres and those that don't may be encouraged to expand their tastes.

I propose that this section be dubbed "Music Opinions". If we are upfront that its all about an opinion and why you feel that way maybe the hate would be diminished. I love the idea of Klipsch and the PWK legacy being all about the music and this new forum would support that.

[Chris A]

Let me thow an example issue into the spotlight: compressed dynamics discs - I can't recommend any disc that has a DR rating below ~12 on the DR Database rating scale - corresponding to an average recorded value on a disc not to exceed -15 dBFS. I believe this opinion to be controversial but I'm pretty sure that my opinion on this subject will not change over time.

Additionally, I can't recommend any disc that shows digital clipping, although I've heard at least one example that exemplifies this problem that I also have listened to and considered to be a very live recording. I simply couldn't recommend it, however, as an example of a "good recording", because it is so avoidable in practice, simply by turning the recording gain down by another 5-10 dB on digital recordings. However, analog recordings have the additional problem of masking these over transients during recording or having too much tape hiss due to the very limited dynamic range of analog recorders vs. digital recorders.

Another issue is background noise, pops, ticks, and infrasonic booming. That which is tolerated by some on vinyl recordings is very objectionable to me. That noise doesn't have to be there and there is no reason why we must put up with it (IMO). This alone rules out most older recordings made before ~1965-1970.

I use the above as screening criteria--meaning you will probably not get me to listen to discs/disks with these problems. I include these criteria in my opinions 100% of the time...and that might hurt someone's feelings that their favorite disc/disk/RTR isn't considered "hi-fi" by me.

Perhaps there is another way to deconflict these. I suppose having two groups: one that isn't techno-phobic that's okay with using screening criteria like the ones above, and one that doesn't. Or perhaps listing the screening data for all recordings where they are available (or pointing to them) in addition to proposing the recording itself through personal experience.

Chris

[aginhouse]

Someone should start a subforum for sharing observations on recordings good or bad. Because on balance the performance can often be more meaningful than the quality of the recording it would be interesting to note what others think about certain recordings.

I have been thinking for a while that there should be at least a thread devoted to music that drives our hobby. I am always looking for new music that is worth sitting down and listening to. Especially high quality recordings that can be highlighted by our systems.

I have an affinity for live recordings w a predominance of acoustic guitar. To my ears, the horns really make the strings pop and give a great presence.

It would be nice to share some of my favorite finds and hopefully find some new in return???