Who DOESN'T need high-end electronics?

[Quiet_Hollow]

Price-wise my system is about as low end as it gets. Less than $3500, including the TV.

Sound-wise, I pit it up against reality, because that's what it sounds like with the right source material.

No one can "buy" good sound per say, because at some point the user is required to know what they're doing with the gear.

Regardless of price-point, there are systems that perform at the 1st chair level, and others at the

level based directly on their owner's skill and having a sensible ear, or lack thereof.

[LarryC]

Sound-wise, I pit it up against reality, because that's what it sounds like with the right source material.

Good outcome! System synergy is so very hard to attain, sometimes takes several tries. I've heard more than a few spendy setups, some in stores, that don't have it.

[laager]

I need high end electronics. I even use them for making my bicycles change gear. []

[bracurrie]

I am a proud member of Klipsch audio school 101.

Where do I enroll. I am eager to learn[8-|]

[bracurrie]

[Y]

For me, I'll take the 3 cases of good wines & throw multiple dinner parties with lots of friends over nursing one exceptional bottle by myself.

A toast is in order with this comment. Here. Here. [Y]

[Boxx]

I need high end electronics. I even use them for making my bicycles change gear.

Well now... In OZ all you need is a "wizard." lol...

[muel]

... As far as buying an amp with future speaker upgrades in mind, that may not be valid either since the best sound is always obtained when the proper synergy exists between the amp and speakers. That happened to a guy down the road who absolutely loved the sound of his LSs when played through a '70s Mac SS amp. After selling the LSs and getting CWs, he couldn't stand the sound, wound up selling the Mac, and went out and bought a Rogue Stereo 90 (which he loves in triode mode, but not ultralinear.) I've always advised people to do the amp and speakers as a combo and have not encountered any disappointments as a result.

I had Cornwalls for quite a while before I got LaScalas last Fall. I was surprised how different the synergy was between the two with some amplifiers. For example, I couldn't understand the excitement about the T-amp with Cornwalls but I didn't think it was too bad with the LaScalas.

[Boomzilla]

I had Cornwalls for quite a while before I got LaScalas last Fall. I was surprised how different the synergy was between the two with some amplifiers. For example, I couldn't understand the excitement about the T-amp with Cornwalls but I didn't think it was too bad with the LaScalas.

The most synergistic system I've ever heard in my LIFE was generation one La Scalas with VTL tube monoblock amplifiers. Presence, imaging, dynamics - I've NEVER heard a stereo sound so much like live music. Wish I'd kept the La Scalas - The VTLs just don't sound the same with the Cornwalls...

[Deang]

Strange thread, don't quite know what to make of some of the comments. I guess it's because I'm getting old, but "high end" back in the day just meant "high quality", which generally translated into a higher level of fidelity. It's really just about increasing your level of pleasure while listening, and that usually means having to spend a little more money than you really wanted. Back then, it was an accepted fact, and nobody made a big deal about it. Somewhere along the line, people came along who wanted to pretend that spending more money didn't necessarily really get you better sound, which culminated in the DBT that determined a Pioneer receiver sounded the same as a Mark Levinson preamp and amp. Then we ended up with the idea that in most cases, there just wasn't enough difference between things to justify the additional expenditure.

So here we have Boomzilla, who says:

I have tried the following amplifiers with the Cornwalls:

• VTL Compact 100 tube monoblocks (100 watts each)
• Rogue Audio Tempest Magnum tube integrated (60 wpc)
• Emotiva Mini-X (50 wpc)
• Emotiva XPA-2 (300 wpc)
• HK AVR 1565 (50 wpc rating - probably closer to 20)
• Pioneer SA-5200 (10 wpc)

You know what? Although all of the above sounded different, they all sounded just fine! Even the 10 wpc Pioneer was adequate to drive the Cornwalls to room-filling sound. So are the high-ticket amplifiers worth their premium cost? In my room and with my speakers, no they aren't.

You give a nice list of amplifiers, but you don't tell us what preamp you're driving these amplifiers with, or what your source is. The preamp will often play a bigger part in the overall sonic signature of the electronics chain than the amplifier. Also, depending on what preamp you're using, you may be handicapping the tube amps. At any rate, what I find odd is that you say you hear differences, but don't have a clear preference. What you are really saying is that you just haven't found the thing yet that clicks for you. So, it might not seem worth it to you now, but when you find the thing that works for you, you certainly won't be saying it wasn't worth it (whatever amount of money it ended up costing you to get there). Because of this, your conclusion is flawed.

I've been trying various types of equipment and loudspeakers for 40 years, and I always have a preference -- it's usually not even a challenging exercise to make the choice.

Start with the speakers and work your way back. It might take five years and some money to get it right, but it's better than doing next to nothing and pretending you have a system that sounds as good as the person who sank some serious bucks into the hobby. You absolutely get what you pay for.

[Boomzilla]

Hi Dean -

Various points you make as well. I'd like to address them individually, if I may.

1. You comment that the preamp isn't listed with my amplifier list. That's because a variety (or none at all) was used. For the majority of the amps, the preamp used is a Chinese Dared SL2000A tube line stage. With the VTLs, the combo was far too lush, putting a layer of syrup over everything played. I also tried using an AudioQuest Dragonfly directly into the VTLs - Better, but still no synergy.

The HK AVR and the Rogue Tempest, being a receiver and integrated respectively, were used without a preamp. For the HK, the TOSLINK output of my Macbook drove the receiver directly. For the Tempest, the Dragonfly drove it.

The best I've gotten so far is with the Dared into the Emotiva. Other than the serious Dared hum (which I just can't cure - I've asked for an RMA number), this is an OK sound.

2. You comment that a synergistic combo is what we all seek. Agreed, but for most of us, it either never happens, or is so fleeting that we don't recognize it till it's gone. So I'll ask the Cornwall III owners here on the Klipsch Community:

What's the very best combo of preamp-power-amp, integrated amp, or receiver that you've ever heard on your Cornwall 3 speakers?

I want the "MAGIC!"

Thanks - Boomzilla

[Heritage_Head]

Strange thread, don't quite know what to make of some of the comments. I guess it's because I'm getting old, but "high end" back in the day just meant "high quality", which generally translated into a higher level of fidelity. It's really just about increasing your level of pleasure while listening, and that usually means having to spend a little more money than you really wanted. Back then, it was an accepted fact, and nobody made a big deal about it. Somewhere along the line, people came along who wanted to pretend that spending more money didn't necessarily really get you better sound, which culminated in the DBT that determined a Pioneer receiver sounded the same as a Mark Levinson preamp and amp. Then we ended up with the idea that in most cases, there just wasn't enough difference between things to justify the additional expenditure.

So here we have Boomzilla, who says:

I have tried the following amplifiers with the Cornwalls:

• VTL Compact 100 tube monoblocks (100 watts each)
• Rogue Audio Tempest Magnum tube integrated (60 wpc)
• Emotiva Mini-X (50 wpc)
• Emotiva XPA-2 (300 wpc)
• HK AVR 1565 (50 wpc rating - probably closer to 20)
• Pioneer SA-5200 (10 wpc)

You know what? Although all of the above sounded different, they all sounded just fine! Even the 10 wpc Pioneer was adequate to drive the Cornwalls to room-filling sound. So are the high-ticket amplifiers worth their premium cost? In my room and with my speakers, no they aren't.

You give a nice list of amplifiers, but you don't tell us what preamp you're driving these amplifiers with, or what your source is. The preamp will often play a bigger part in the overall sonic signature of the electronics chain than the amplifier. Also, depending on what preamp you're using, you may be handicapping the tube amps. At any rate, what I find odd is that you say you hear differences, but don't have a clear preference. What you are really saying is that you just haven't found the thing yet that clicks for you. So, it might not seem worth it to you now, but when you find the thing that works for you, you certainly won't be saying it wasn't worth it (whatever amount of money it ended up costing you to get there). Because of this, your conclusion is flawed.

I've been trying various types of equipment and loudspeakers for 40 years, and I always have a preference -- it's usually not even a challenging exercise to make the choice.

Start with the speakers and work your way back. It might take five years and some money to get it right, but it's better than doing next to nothing and pretending you have a system that sounds as good as the person who sank some serious bucks into the hobby. You absolutely get what you pay for.

Could not agree more dean. You get what you pay for period. Nothing wrong with buying value (we all do it).

[willland]

Dean,

I sent you a PM.

Bill

[tube fanatic]

I don't agree with the "you get what you pay for" philosophy at all. In many cases paying more yields far less for the purchaser in my experience. Unfortunately, every manufacturer has a set of design goals which may yield a superior result in some, but not all, instances. And the higher price is often more a reflection of the cosmetics than the electronics (after all, does a person really need a front panel a quarter inch thick and milled from some exotic alloy?) As I said in the earlier post, it's all about synergy between the speakers and amp (and the best way to choose a power amp is to forget a preamp and drive it with an impedance compatible passive line stage through low capacitance, short, cables. Obviously, with an integrated amp that's not a variable.) Once the amp is chosen, then the preamp can be the next item in the chain. As Dean said, start with the speaker and work backwards. The other option is to find a custom amp builder (and, yes, they are out there) who will work with you to achieve exactly what you want to hear from your system by tweaking the operating parameters. And that doesn't have to be a costly way to go and, in many cases, can be less costly than buying commercial gear.

Maynard

[derrickdj1]

The preamp will often play a bigger part in the overall sonic signature of the electronics chain than the amplifier.

I agree that the preamp is a big part of the sound or sonic signature of a system. To much emphasis is placed on the wattage of amps. The speakers and the setup of a system is also important. The room is at least 50 percent. The quest for the right sound is very individual and takes time to get things right.

[Boomzilla]

Well, ladies, at least SOME progress...

I've taken the Dared SL2000A preamp OUT of the system for good. I've asked Dared for an RMA number. I'm skeptical that I'll receive one, but we'll see...

I tried the Audioquest Dragonfly directly into the Emotiva XPA-2 (which I consider a WONDERFUL solid-state power amp). The image collapsed, the sound was dry as dust, and the system sounded profoundly "solid state." Not a happy match.

Then, leaving the Dragonfly as combo DAC and preamp, I (reluctantly) put the VTL Compact 100s back into the mix. NOW the soundstage opened up and instruments began sounding "real." The problem was that I've now got too much midrange! Norah Jones' piano sounds fine, but when her voice enters the mix, she's about 10 times too loud!

I'm open to ideas here... Mr. Moray James' ping-pong balls in the midrange and tweeter horns may be another option.

The current combo is but a stop-gap measure. I profoundly DON'T want vacuum-tube power amps - period. They worry me. I'd much prefer a solid state power section with a tube front end. Better reliability, etc.

Options, as I see them are:

• buy a tube preamp that doesn't hum
• ditch the pre/power setup and buy a hybrid integrated
• find a solid-state integrated (with built-in DAC) that sounds good with the Cornwalls
• get one of youse guys to recommend some electronics that sound awesome with the Cornwalls

The Cornwalls, being bass reflex puppies, don't strike me as being the tightest bass around. One amp that I've been reading about (mixed reviews) is the Nu-Force DDA-100. At 50 WPC, it should have more than enough oomph for the Cornwalls since I'm not a head-banger. Anyone heard that one?

So to sum up, I'm still at loose ends on amplification. Now (in my best Ben Stein voice): Anyone? Anyone?

[Deang]

For the majority of the amps, the preamp used is a Chinese Dared SL2000A tube line stage. With the VTLs, the combo was far too lush, putting a layer of syrup over everything played.

This is good, because now you know what you don't like, and that's as important as knowing what you do like.

I also tried using an AudioQuest Dragonfly directly into the VTLs - Better, but still no synergy.

"Synergy" is just a word that means something you like the sound of. I've heard systems where the owner talked about "great synergy" that sounded dismal to me.

The best I've gotten so far is with the Dared into the Emotiva.

Sounds like you're okay with good solid state working with a tube front end. You need a tube preamp with a cathode follower, and based on your impression of the Dared with the VTLs, I'm thinking you might actually prefer the sound of the 6922. Now, you talk about "the very best", and that's where we can run into some problems. I'm really with Tube Fanatic here and don't believe you have to spend thousands of dollars to get great sound. The used market has a lot of good stuff and I would be spending my time on Audiogon - see if you can find a good deal on an Audible Illusions Modulus 3.

"You get what you pay for". Okay, let's put that into some perspective. I mean it in a general way. For example, a bare bones Chinese preamp isn't going to hang with something like the Audible Illusions or Mark's Juicy Music Peach. I consider those both to be "high end", but both can be had for $1000 or less. I just picked up an Acurus 200 Five amplifier for $650.00. It's about a decade old, but the new version, which is basically the same as the one I have -- goes for $3800.00.

Learn and shop smart.

[Daddy Dee]

The Peach is a wonderful preamp. Also had a JM Merlin and thoroughly enjoyed it, too.

[Deang]

I don't agree with the "you get what you pay for" philosophy at all. In many cases paying more yields far less for the purchaser in my experience. Unfortunately, every manufacturer has a set of design goals which may yield a superior result in some, but not all, instances. And the higher price is often more a reflection of the cosmetics than the electronics (after all, does a person really need a front panel a quarter inch thick and milled from some exotic alloy?)

Yeah, maybe I need to quit saying that, because I'm not sure if that's what I really mean. Within reason and in general it seems to apply, but what I think I'm really trying to say is not to expect dirt cheap to hang with obviously superior stuff. I read your post and the first thing I thought about was Bryston. I used to run a 3B-ST, and while it sounded pretty nice, I really didn't think it carried the kind of sound that went with the price tag. That's what makes companies like Emotiva and Oppo so compelling -- big bang for the buck stuff. Do I consider products from those companies to be "high end", you bet I do.

[stormin]

The used market has a lot of good stuff and I would be spending my time on Audiogon - see if you can find a good deal on an Audible Illusions Modulus 3. I just picked up an Acurus 200 Five amplifier for $650.00. It's about a decade old, but the new version, which is basically the same as the one I have -- goes for $3800.00.

Learn and shop smart.

I have ran an Audible Illusions L1 for years. I paired it with a McCormack DNA1 rev B+ which everyone claims is the cats meow. To these head banging ears I enjoyed the Audible Illusions paired with the Aragon 4004 MKII much better. I also found the combo to sound much better paired with VMPS over Klipsch. I like the Aragon a little better than the Acurus stuff if your going to rock out because it has a bit of a warmer signature.

I agree, buying used can save a boat load of money and some of the gems of years past still sound fantastic. I am still sold on the QSC PLX series and the Crown K series of pro amps. But I like to crack plaster so my needs differ from many. I still say if all I ever listened to was jazz I would only want a pair of Cornwalls paired with a nice tube amp.

[Boomzilla]

Well, I've heard WONDERFUL sound for less than stellar equipment before. A Frank Van-Alstine modified Dynaco PAS is an (inexpensive) thing of sonic wonder. Even lower on the food-chain, I tried a Qinpu A-6000 (tube pre + SS chip outputs) that sounded ravishing at 16 wpc. At the time I tried it, my speakers weren't 16 wpc friendly; now they are. I've read a GLOWING review in TAS magazine about a Nu-Force DDA-100 that would do everything I wanted, but then read a review at 6-moons (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/nuforce17/5.html) that said the amp only sounded good when almost clipping.

Point is, it isn't about money, it's about the sound. I don't expect electrostatic speed from my Cornwalls; I don't expect Magnepan transparency from my Cornwalls; I don't expect Theil imaging from my Cornwalls. What I do expect is realistic vocals, good detail from top to bottom, some soundstaging, and good bass. My definition of "good bass" includes a lower register that is tight, has good pitch definition, and goes deep enough not to need a subwoofer. These are realistic expectations for a speaker of the Cornwall's construction, design criteria, and size. What I haven't yet found yet is an amplification combination that will fulfill those expectations.

As to electronics, my philosophy is "less equipment is better equipment." I'd rather have one box on the rack than three or four. That leads me toward an integrated amplifier with a DAC built in. I've had some tell me that what I want isn't available. I don't believe it. SOMEBODY makes it! The Bel-Canto that I read about in a recent TAS magazine might be a contender; the Nu-Force might be; NAD makes integrateds with DACs. All of the previous, however, are solid state only. If I can get the sound I want from solid state, then I'm perfectly happy to do so. One other recommendation that might work is the Peachtree (which has a switchable tube buffer in it).

And now the ball's in your court again, ladies - You know what I want, where should I go to get it?