kev313 Posted June 26, 2002 Share Posted June 26, 2002 echoing lynnm sentiments...there is nothing wrong with having an opinion on one side or the other in this debate. as this thread shows (and let me tell you after my time in law school i can say is almost always the case, especially in conlaw issues) there are good, logical, legal arguments on either side to support your opinion. the best discussions come when we recognize that and listen to the other point of view. kenrat, let's keep it on that level ok? realize that when you open like that you could follow with the theory of relativity and you would still look ignorant. you lost your credibility before you started. edit your topic. ------------------ Two Channel System: Klipsch Fortes (1988) Jolida 202a Rega Planet Denon DP 3000 tt (Stax tonearm; Grado Gold cart.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted June 27, 2002 Author Share Posted June 27, 2002 I use the word to describe people who think more about a tiny majority of people (aka, think Democracy is poo poo) as opposed to using it as another word for gays. Maybe A$$h0le'a would have been more appropriate. If the WEBMASTER (read, person who can suspend my account) asks me to change it, I will as soon as its requested, it will be to A$$h0le Observation:s> It's funny how quickly people switch sides after HornED's post. DEMOCRACY IN ACTION, right here... I hold my stance. Its not about this particular event, its about what trends may occur from this ruling. I am looking at the big picture; whats happening in 5, 10, 20 years. But really, deep down inside, the Under God was put in to fight Communists by making religion a stronger part of American culture in the 50's. So, is it really nessasary? Maybe, its fighting terrorism...? ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunbeam64 Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 Not the scholar that HornEd is- no nearly the worldly wisdom. Just wanted noted that this was a Circut Court decission that still has to stand the test before the Supreme Court. Sure seems the ACLU takes on causes that only repressent the most insignifigant or extreme left positions which force the overwhelming majority to comply with laws that are in opposition to their basic moral beliefs. Especially since the events of 9-11- which has brought about a groundswell of renewed nationalism, I've been sharing more moments of American pride- revelling at ball games during the Nation Anthem, experiencing the triumphs and trajedies of our various rescueworkers, our soldiers putting their lives in peril on foreign shores. If saying "God" offends someone- no problem, here in America you're free to be silent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 Kenratboy, I admire your spirit and patriotism... if not always your word choice. I think our positions are more alike than different. You reacted negatively to having the Pledge of Alligence you were taught to say changed. That's exactly the way I reacted in 1954 when they changed the way I had been taught to say it. Yeah, it was even my opinion that if people wanted to say "under God" they could do it without having to make it official.You are right about a great many things... like the first time they put "In God We Trust" on a coin was in the Civil War era when the Union politicians found they had more public support to reconstruct the south by making it a religiouos issue. And, you are right again in that the Eisenhower Administration and a Joint Session of the 84th Congress made "In God We Trust" our official National Motto as a way to use religion as a weapon against the "Godless Communists." And that was the same group that changed the Pledge of Allegiance. Unfortunately, in all three instances, our leaders were bringing religion into the game... even though their right to do so has been suspect all along. Hey, Kenratboy your freedom and mine are guaranteed by our nations laws... all the laws, not just the ones we like. I appreciate American citizens who can support this nation as an extension of their faith. I am all for patriotism... but I don't know that insisting that our country use my word for God in the Pledge that all all new citizens, of whatever faith, are forced to take as the price of being an American. And, BTW, I much prefer Nevada laws to California laws. I am a native San Franciscan that left California when I was 21 and didn't come back until it was necessary to care for my aged parents... so I hope I don't automatically earn your usual disrespect for Californians. I appreciate your speaking out for what you believe... and I prefer not to hang a bunch of labels on you. You have some valid viewpoints... and, hopefully, so do I. Thanks for bringing up the subject... I was ill and hadn't heard the news until I read your post. -HornED This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-27-2002 at 01:27 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted June 27, 2002 Author Share Posted June 27, 2002 HornED, there are ~32,000,000 peoples in CA, and I know they are not all evil, anti-government freaks. To be honest (with you and myself) I am very tolerent, maybe more so than most, but I do not play the PC game and run and hide in fear with anything comes around that someone may take offence to. When I am around someone who is REALLY forign (as in they know it), they figure out pretty quick that I will be their friend if they do likewise, I have no interest in making enimies simply because of a ethnic background. Hey, I was born in Berkley, and GREW UP in the Bay Area, LA, and San Diego. So, I am VERY much a part of California. I may even consider a road trip to SF with a friend later this summer. You cannot forget my speakers and subwoofer (JBL) were made in Northridge. Also, I figure, after I graduate from UNR (the university here in Reno) I may have my first jobs in Sacramento, San Francisco, etc., so I am prepaired to do that, but if I can, in Reno I will stay. I am always glad when a post like this doesn't turn into a flame fest. Let's keep it that way, however, I am prepaired to argue my point (unless you are rigging the topic to cause trouble) ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 I am glad you put a spinning smiley on that "topic rigging" comment. Kenratboy while we may not always agree... I think that we are a lot more alike than we are different. We both say what we think and don't shrink away just because people don't agree with us. I am just looking at the issue from the point of view of an enduring Constitution that should protect you whether you are in the religious majority or minority. God's place in our nation should be as a reflection of his people's prayers and actions... and not by an edit that all citizens of every religion must include in taking the Pledge of Alligence. You seem to be saying, hey, that's the way its been for almost fifty years so why change it? If putting God in the mix builds patriotism to catch terrorists, than lets go for it. I just believe our Constitutional guarantees need to be stronger than that if we are to maintain and improve our country in the world's family of nations. And I don't think we are going to get there by playing nationalist "my God's better than your god" put down games. It is overly presumptuous to hold that the word "God" means the same thing to every American citizen in his personal concept of religion. That's why the Constitution and Bill of Rights does NOT give the authority to the United States Government to authorize one religious concept over all others. Using the word "God" in the Pledge and in our National Motto just doesn't fit millions of American citizens. The Republican Administration during the Civil War brought the first use of the term "In God We Trust" on a 2¢ coin... the Republican Administration of the mid-1950's swept it in as the "National Motto" and put "under God" into the Pledge all Americans are supposed to make. You've lived overseas under foreign governments... and so have I. I prefer my country to any I have visited around the world. I am proud of my country... but I can't say they have always done the right thing. I would like to think that we are all big enough as individuals to step up and make wrong things right. -HornED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 I admire HornEd's extreme patience and careful meticulous placement of lustrous multicoated oyster irritants in the hog pen, however it is funny for me to contemplate an audiophile who wants to get tighter bass on a constant diet of right wing hate radio. Seems to my recollection that this is not the first time the rodentia has poked out of that hole and appeared hereabouts. Wire barriers, poison grains, smoke bombs, baited traps, sitting there with a riot gun and they still manage to gnaw away at the fig tree, cherry tree, and almost everything else. Difficult to get good growth in such an environment. -Mr. Natural and Farmer John HornEd, thanks for making my week! PS: Seems like 1954 was also about the time it became clear that politically connected corporate powers took away for all time any authority that truth seeking scientists might have had in influencing the outcome of this socalled civilization. "God" and "God Fearing" became the symbol for the Blue Meanies, otherwise known as falsely patriotic truth supressed sensually repressed red baiting racist white supremecist authoritarian prison warding anti humanitarian witch burning atom bomb dropping scum sucking ignorant gobs of spit whose war mongering youth killing chickens are now coming home to roost as seen in the almost hopeless downward spiralling corrupt mess we are in now - and determined to take down the rest of the planet as we go, God forbid we consider why someone might not like us or our upper echelon's deceptively hidden media misdirected oily greed motivated foreign policy. {Scientists, etc. would have had us completely non- dependent on their ****in' oil by now etc. and the unfortunately now antiquated concept of "peace and prosperity for all" etc might have had a chance etc.} BTW, What is the very best plywood to use in a DIY speaker cabinet? Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 06-27-2002 at 04:02 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 When I think 'Nevada' gambling and legalized prostitution come to mind. 'CA' is famous for its fruits, nuts, and the city of brotherly love. It only stands to reason that the sterling citizens of those states should not be allowed to prey (sic). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikekid Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 Oh come on now........... EVERY state has it's good and bad points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 i was pretty amazed by this. do they NOT know what the seperation of church and state was? keep the king of england from forcing us to be angelican/catholic. not keeping church out of school but to not have a religious country. what god do we pledge to? I say Jesus's father, Amir (made up person) may say Budda. Who cares, it is your god you are pledging to. Athiest? Well, don't say the pledge, not my problem. Just do what you want to do, don't need to change the heritage of our country. ------------------ -justin SoundWise Support A technical help site created by me and my fellow Klipschers I am an amateur, if it is professional; ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665 or for an RA# 800-554-7724 ext 5 Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150s> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 HornEd couldn't have made it any clearer. But that assumes the audience knows how to read and or think. The worse consequences of this disjointed off -topic thread is that it reveals quite realisitically that this forum is not a collection of individuals brought together by intelligence or even any cultural commonality, let alone an abillity to read or write. This is merely a forum about shopping for general consumer electronics, a collection of people as random as the shoppers in a mall. How many of those people would you expect to engage in anything but superficial chat. More likely you are to be irritated by some jerk in the parking lot or overhear some idiot mouthing his ignorance about something and be reminded that there is virtually no real American culture aside from consumerism. Let's get real around here and keep on topic about shopping for audio crap and stay away from any illusions that this forum can handle anything else. Right wing idiocy supported by radio hate monger's and their litany of mindless cliches is not a substitute for actual culture. Our common culture is about hot dogs (who knows-or cares- what "they" grind up in there) and fireworks (a thinly disguised reminder that we like the drama of warfare) so let's get ready for a happy dog whining Fourth of July. Whoopdedoo! This forum's presumably brand loyal collection of individuals devoted to justifying their conspicuous consumption of expensive consumer goods is already rather sociologically and psychologically skewed, and it certainly is not surprising that if we scatch below that surface we will come up with political weirdness and intolerant ugliness. We should not let Rat boy ruin things around here. I find that a little peanut butter and a raisin carefully placed on the old Victor trap will snap their necks off every time. I bury the carcasses under a rose bush for compost. This later results in many more fragrant blooms. Fruits and nuts will catch a rat every time. -vitamin C and vitamin E ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 06-27-2002 at 10:48 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 Watch it Rat these CA Loons will hall your Butt in Front of the San Fran Circuit court Of Homo Rights. LOL AHHH YES CA, the land of la las or whatever one was the gay teletubby and THE LEFT COAST. When the Left Coasts Breaks away from the mainland I sure it will Float to Join with France. The Only thing I like about CA is Mr Toad Wild Ride at Disneyland and those big artificial Hooters at the Viper Room off Sunset. Point the CA Loony Birds Dont get is "God" is a Diety not Religion As Used by the Government. Means Faith in Something. Everybody believe in something and has faith in Something or Else they an Ape. Hell you can worship the Head of your Penis if you want. ------------------ Go Forth and Hump the World Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 the fireworks stands are allready open around me! pretty early for texas it seems. i had a hot dog at Minute Maid Field, formerly ENRON Field. Hot Dog, $6.50, Drink, $6.50 total, $13.00. I bought the meals for three friends also. Ouch. My ticket... $46. Parking Space, who knows, in the Diamond members parking. which is about 5 feet from the entrance, whoo hoo! Great game, Astro's vs Marlins... or were they the Diamond Backs... haha. 4 home runs in one game! GO STROS! Got some AWESOME Pics of the game with our NIKON D1X and 500mm lens with monopod, of course. However, my computer will not talk to my NIKON anymore, and i don't have the microdrive attachment at home I wanted to post some pics, baseball card quality, 2 me at least I tell ya, never had a better hot dog than what I had while i was in denmark. Oh my, could eat some right now. new York and Chicago both have good dogs, the Minute Maid Field dogs were adequate, the foot longs looked nice. Interesting though, they have 4 models, if you will, of hot dogs, New York, Texas, Sometihng else, and then one more... Any who. They are all exactly the same. But on the menu they show 4 different ones. Weird eh? I remember one year with fireworks. When we lived out in the country, we would have the paintball wars. At night time we used roman candles to light our path along with those super bright flare things. bottle rockets hurt when they hit you BTW. In the day time it was a smoke screen of red, blue, orange, green and black. Once my counsin and I ran out of MAMOTH smoke bombs so we made our own. Sugar + Salt Peter + Slow Burn Fuse= 15 minute smoke bomb. It was excellent, and saved up about 4 bucks Ok, kinda went on a tangent, but I am VERY bored, trying to get in touch with some friends to go do something. Also trying to win this ebay auction, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=888872448 , but i can not log in because at first i was not 18, will be in about a month. So I used my brother's name and info. My credit card will not work for them, Bank Of America/VISA... has always worked and has plenty of money in the checking, credit and savings... What is the deal? I have PayPal and have bought stuff online all the time with it... ugh. I really want those plans so I can build some! 45 pages! AHHH. I really wanted this. maybe my aunt who auctions for a living can help out, i built her website www.irishdresden.com/ well, c ya later. GOD BLESS AMERICA cheers ------------------ -justin SoundWise Support A technical help site created by me and my fellow Klipschers I am an amateur, if it is professional; ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665 or for an RA# 800-554-7724 ext 5 Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150s> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 and now the KHorn's are on sale. Not as worried anymore about not getting plans, it seems that easyed21 has a ton of them, sounds like he prints them himself. quote: Don't settle for cheap copies. Every bidder has praised these plans. NO comparison to other plans. These were printed professionally. really would like to build the La Scala. For some reason it is the Klipsch horn speaker that calls me... ------------------ -justin SoundWise Support A technical help site created by me and my fellow Klipschers I am an amateur, if it is professional; ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665 or for an RA# 800-554-7724 ext 5 Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150s> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric D Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 Wow! Not meaning to offend kenratboy, but I have to say thanks to HornEd for the best single post I have ever read on any topic at any time anywhere on the web (going back to 1990 for me). When I read the words, the use of "under God" to me states the judeo-christian entity, since it is capitalized. It's not "under my creator," "under my god(s).," or even "under the flompy-doodle guy" (see, I did read all the posts in the thread). And it doesn't appear to be a pledge I am making by my God or to my God, but a statement that our nation is "under God." And I admit to being one that was confused by learning about the Bill of Rights and wondered how the Pledge of Allegiance could seem to be in conflict with it. The history I've learned in the last day has been quite interesting. For me, Devotion to God is separate from devotion (allegiance!) to country. Furthermore, I think that confusing those two, along with religious intolerance, is what has led to a lot of the wars in the world - especially of late. And I grow concerned that there is increasing polarization within our own culture. What I want from my fellow citizens is allegience to our country and its ideals. If one of our country's ideals is to allow religious freedom (which I strongly agree with - ref my reasons in the last paragraph), then we should be pursuing it *actively*, not pushing that concept away. Too often, it looks to me that people think that the right to practice religion extends only to their own. If we want religious freedom for ourselves, we must needs extend it to others. I'm pretty sure there must be a named mathematical or philisophical principal here - can anyone help me out here? (one of my favorite things I ever found on the web was a really concise explanation of Occam's Razor, and I'm hoping that there's some similar subject to be explored here) For those who were raised to believe in The Golden Rule (as I was), just apply it and I believe you come to the same conclusion. Two points of distinction. First, I don't believe any of my discussion had anything to do with separation of church and state (which BTW I *do* feel helps promote freedom of religion). I just hope that helps keep the discussion on-point. And secondly, I hope that we all apply our religious ideals to running the country. But that doesn't mean that we have a theocracy, it doesn't mean that one religion is predominate in the running of the country, nor does it mean that we apply our religion to running the country. But I do hope that people of my religion apply the ideals that I have learned from my religion to that difficult task (running a country), and that other people of other religions do the same. For athiests, I hope that they apply ethical ideals. I welcome prayers at the beginning of legislative bodies for guidance and wisdom. I would hope that all those who are actually involved in making the decisions have their beliefs represented in such prayers. And if there is an athiest, such a time can be a time of quiet reflection on their ethics. For example (choosing two major religions that don't happen to be my own), if my city council was completely filled by Muslims and Budhists, I would hope that there was a prayer to Allah and Buddah for wisdom. I would hope that there was NOT a pledge that tied the city to Islam. But by the golden rule, I don't want a pledge that ties my government to my religion either. Which leads me to a point that confuses me, but I think I have resolved it at least to my satisfaction - what would I do if someone was elected who represented a religion who's ideals I truly despised. I will use the example of a Satanist because I respond to it at a gut level, and if I can resolve it to my overall ideal for freedom of religion while maintaining a civilization then I guess I think the model works. I would not want the country run to what I think are evil ideals, but if they were to swear to Satan to run the country to the country's ideals, obey the laws, or defend the country, then I would be satisfied that they were trying their best for all of us. If those of you who might have a gut-level response (hatred?) to athiests, pagans, buddhists, muslims, jews, or even christians apply that same thought process, I guess I would hope that you come to the same conclusion. Well, I hope while my posting was not as literate as HornEd's, that it still provides some meat for thought. As long as there is informed debate, I hope we all (including me) grow from it. God bless America (that being my wish, which isn't to state God bless America-under-God.) Take care, Eric P.S. Yes, I may be a life-long Californian, but I *was* raised in "Redneck California" P.P.S. kenratboy (he said gently) - its "faggots", not "******'s." Even though I'm as hetero as they come. But that's another discussion (consider applying the same Golden Rule model as above and you'll guess my opinion there). This message has been edited by Eric D on 06-27-2002 at 12:12 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 C&S-Wow! Another excellent post. I'm still learning from you... fini Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htxpert Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 Behold the minds we have amongst us... makes me scared sometimes, what if they team up against us regulars?! cheers! ------------------ -justin SoundWise Support A technical help site created by me and my fellow Klipschers I am an amateur, if it is professional; ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665 or for an RA# 800-554-7724 ext 5 Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150s> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric D Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 And catching up on the other discussions since I started writing my long monologue... I guess I think those who don't think the discussion is appropriate can "turn the channel." Yes I come to here looking for topics of an audio nature. But I guess I don't think it precludes an occaisional attempt at enlightenment on other more pressing issues. I for one am glad for kenratboy's bringing up of the whole topic because it gave me the opportunity to read HornEd's response. And maybe something to reflect upon if I wax reflective between bites of hot dog (Mmmm, Hebrew National ) on the 4th. Best to you all, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric D Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 This message has been edited by Eric D on 06-27-2002 at 12:31 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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