Grrrr, the f---s in CA have made it illegal for me to...

[forresthump2]

Tripud and Im sure the FIRST thing You'd like to do is hop in bed with one or more of those gay Libby judges. Sweet Dreams.

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Go Forth and Hump the World

[Eric D]

kenratboy (I am replying to you since this is *your* thread),

I did not take offense, and hope my comments do not offend... I agree, by discussion we learn - And I'm glad you want to discuss this. Some of my best memories through the teens and tweens were of heartfelt, passionate discussion. I have had too few of these in later years, but I'm thankful for them whether they change my mind or just force me to understand the underlying basic premise and chain of logic or emotion that leads me to a specific belief.

Here's an example of where we agree completely: I also hope that we don't start outlawing Christmas celebrations. The prime examples I've seen (and believed wrongly) have been banning of Nativity scenes or (to use an SF Bay area occurance of a few years back) placing of a menorah on public lands. That seems to me to be misplaced attempts at separation of church and state. No more dangerous to me than it is to allow a wedding to take place in a park.

Another example: invocations at public school graduation. Along time ago, I probably would have knee-jerked a response about them being inapproprate because of separation of church and state - anything can sound good by stringing enough buzzwords together. But upon further reflection, they seem totally appropriate. It's not an attempt at using the public school to convert me - it's one individual (selected to speak for everyone because we don't have time for every single person present to wish every one graduating in every permutation) wishing me the best for the future in the most profound way they personally know.

In trying to be "proactive" about religious freedom, I'd hope they'd know what religions (or to encompass atheism - belief structure) the graduates have and would structure their words accordingly (who cares about the people attending - it's for the graduates). And I would hope the person giving it would phrase their words such that it is their personal prayer rather than to assume they have the right to speak *for me.* But if someone wanted to have a Muslim cleric give the invocation, and he asked for Allah's grace to be on me, I for one would be thankful that he had good wishes.

I know I won't say this completely correct, but I think the function of the judiciary here is to keep the legislature from instituting laws that break our rights under the Bill of Rights. It's the same scalpel being applying to the Pledge of Allegiance as it would be to our right to bear arms. Doesn't seem anarchistic nor liberal to me.

Back directly on-topic: I don't find removing those words ("under God") to be abridging my freedom of speech (or religion) But interesting how bringing up freedom of speech - you're free to advocate that this become "one nation under God" and to suggest changing the constitution thereto. We even have a process in place to do it - amendments. I admit to being myself at the thought of it succeeding, though, because of all the other thought-control that people usually want to attach.

I guess I think the religious thought would be made as a personal vow at the end, to whomever you believe to be your creator.

I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America. One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

So help me God.

That sounds like the most profound statement I can make. I would hope all my Jewish, Muslim, Hindi, and atheist brethren (and sistren?) would insert their most powerful oath at the end as well.

OK, I'm still craving a hot dog on the 4th.

Eric.

[justin_tx_16]

apparently tripod, forresthump2 cares little about what you said

quote:

---

this is not the place for personal shots at one another

---

as far as me, i agree with you. and heck, lets not worry about this either way. it is still up for grabs on both sides.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20020627/ap_on_re_us/pledge_of_allegiance_18

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[m00n]

So Tripod, what your saying then is that if you go to another country, you expect them to change because you are differnt? Afterall, all their countries traditions very well may not be yours. I would never move to a new country and expect that they would even consider chaning their holiday traditions to meet what I consider a tradition. That would be ludicrious. Or even if I decided to change my religous beliefs...

You know, we are supposed to be a free country right?... Thats all good. We are supposed to teach tolerence right?... That's all good.

Then tolerate the fact that America has always celebrated Christmas and leave it alone. It has always been called Christmas.

As I have said, I can see both sides of the coin on this issue, but I do feel that this is yet another chip taken from our strength. Someday this county is going to be so liberal that it will fall appart. Hell, we don't need Bin Laden to terrorize our country, we can distroy it socially ourselves. It may take a lot longer, but, we will end up doing it.

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This message has been edited by m00n on 06-27-2002 at 02:52 PM

[HornEd]

Yo, Moon, I agree that celebrating religious holidays is an American tradition... one that should be extended to all Americans... and not just the current popular majority.

It is easy for some folks to roll off phrases like, "preserving heritages that have always been." Unfortunately, usually such sweeping statements just aren't true. This nation was not founded as a "Christian Nation" as far as my historical research has proven. But, this nation was founded as a nation where Christianity can flourish... and it has!

Few seem to realize that Jefferson, Adams, Washington, Paine, Greene and Franklin were not Christians... they were deists... and, as such, held to the three basic deist tenets of: Belief in God; Do no harm; and Prayer without churches. And, of course, Lincoln, the champion of people, didn't even go as far as the deists in his belief... or lack thereof. At late Sen. Joe McCarthy nor the resurrected Forresthump2 didn't strip them of their patriot's credentials... yet.

That this topic can be discussed on a commercial web site with as few flames as have been logged is a tribute to our country and our favorite speaker manufacturer. It is personally rewarding to be able to find a few folks who can see the Golden Rule implicit in the fabric of our Constitution. Christianity may go back 2,500 years... but the Golden Rule goes back to religious writings that predate the Pharaohs.

If even a precious few Forum folk and lurkers can gain new strength in understanding their patriotism and their heritage... than my efforts have not been in vane. Since 9-11, it is more important than ever that we show the world an honest face as a country and a devout face as a people... and the wisdom to know the difference. -HornED

PS: Merry Christmas m00n! Not being a liberal, all I can do is hope you discover that this country is supposed to welcome people of all faiths without necessarily imposing your faith upon them. So, an immigrant should have an expectation of religious freedom here that we may not have if we were to go to his country.

Anyone who says, "This is a free country and you better accept our God tradition or you can just (expletive deleted) keep moving on!" hasn't taken the time to learn what makes this country great... and see what tears it down. -H.E.

This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-27-2002 at 03:11 PM

[Roadhawg]

I've got a feeling I'm going to regret posting on this topic, but here goes:

I agree with Dean on this. The concept of separation of church and state has been thrown about and in my opinion distorted to take on a meaning never intended.

The goal was to make sure the government did not establish an official state religion people were required to participate in. The words "under God" in a voluntary pledge fall way short of that in my eyes. A misrepresentation repeated often enough over time comes to be regarded as truth by many just due to the sheer volume of repetition.

The individuals who established this country which makes possible this discussion in the first place were incredibly gifted people. No other country in the history of the world has accomplished the things this one has. There are many countries with equal or better natural resources-what makes America so unique?

I believe the answer is that this country was founded as a free republic under God.

Whether you like it or not, that is the truth. You may choose to believe in God or not-that is your choice. Regardless of what you or I may think about it, our history is what it is. If our Founding Fathers had not been driven by a belief in God and their desire to worship Him freely, this country as we know it would not have come to be.

The reason our Founding Fathers held our personal freedoms as being inviolable was their belief that these basic rights were imparted to us by our Creator.

Now you may disagree with their belief, but that does not change the fact that they believed it.

Our Pledge of Allegiance mentions many more things than the phrase "under God". Maybe you don't think the states should be United-so what? They are. Maybe you don't think a Republic is the way to go-so what? That's what we have. Maybe you'd rather pledge allegiance to a group of nations rather than "one nation". So what? This is one nation. Got a problem with the word "indivisible"? How about "with liberty and justice for all"?

The fact that it may rankle you that this is a nation founded on Judeo-Christian principles doesn't change history. The phrase "under God" is a recognition of not only our history but the very reason this country even exists.

Clipped and Shorn-I don't even know where to start. I hope you were joking but I have a feeling you weren't.

Do you really believe our culture is just hot dogs and fireworks and that fireworks are "a thinly disguised reminder that we like the drama of warfare"? Who are you speaking for? Not me, for sure. I don't like hot dogs and I just happen to think fireworks are pretty to look at and so does my 5 year old daughter who doesn't even know what war is yet.

That's the problem with blanket statements about people you don't know. What group exactly are you referring to with that lengthy diatribe of namecalling?

"Constant diet of right wing hate radio"-what are you talking about-your comments are far and away the most venom laced I have seen on this thread. "Right wing idiocy", "intolerant ugliness"-seems to me you are thus far the least tolerant post here.

Do you honestly believe "truth seeking scientists" are our best hope? You mention the atom bomb, greedy corporations, oil in your list of villains...Hello, may I speak to the truth seeking scientist? I'm sorry, he is working on the atom bomb right now. Just who do you think creates the products that the greedy corporations sell and formulates the oil and gas that goes into your car?

On a lighter note before the flames begin, forresthump-the only problem with your suggestion of "ship em all to France" is that France might think they are being invaded and surrender. (Just a joke)

[forresthump2]

Exacatacily Moon. Im sure you've heard the great communists proclaim that Democracy has the Seeds of its own Destruction. Well look here at these seeds pop up. OBL's timing couldn't have been better on this last attack after the numerous under and planning for 9/11 mostly under, Slick Willy. Now the ignorant Libbies will blame W for it though he just got in office when it happened. Anybody with sense and in the military knows how much Slick damaged the country and how long it will take to be fixed. Some day the main fight will be right here in this country weeding out these seeds that hide behind the rights of citizens only to really take away all rights of those who dont believe in their

ways. Liberals ARE the seeds of this country's destruction and they are the barbarians at the gate of rome.

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Go Forth and Hump the World

[forresthump2]

Horned can anybody's that not a Radical Lib live in the Bay Area? No matter how much hot air you spin in your prose you have the same Dem party preprogrammed agenda in all your views. You also have the same pompous Liberal attitude in every other windbag stance you take. What will be your excuse when the Supreme Court strikes down your beloved commie court? LOL Cant wait to see when this happens and you try to control the rage with in the fluffy prose.

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Go Forth and Hump the World

[Eric D]

But I would argue that we a country founded by God-fearing people with the specific intent of allowing religious freedom for its citizens (not just for ME.)

For those of you who are worried about our country tearing itself apart; I think we tear ourselves apart on a regular schedule - everytime we vote a new legislature or president. But somehow we muddle along. What a system!

God bless America,

Eric

[Eric D]

Just did a little looking and perhaps philosophy *does* refer to The Golden Rule. For those who might have some outside inquisitiveness:

http://www.jcu.edu/philosophy/gensler/goldrule.htm

http://www.jcu.edu/philosophy/gensler/fe/fe-5--00.htm

Eric

This message has been edited by Eric D on 06-27-2002 at 03:29 PM

[forresthump2]

" FED APPEALS JUDGE STAYS PLEDGE OF ALLEGINACE RULING"

MUHAHAHA - Youse Libby roaches came out of the woodwork

too soon.

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Go Forth and Hump the World

[kenratboy]

Also, let's not forget another thing. Part fact, part opinion (mine.)

We live in a Democracy. In a Democracy, the baby brid that screams the loudest gets the worm. Does that mean the BIGGEST group should win, or the LOUDEST group?

I would like to know what percentage of American's celebrate Christman, Hanukah, Kwanzaa, etc. I have a strong feeling that ~70%+ (read: guess) celebrate Chirstmas. Doesn't that mean there should be some right in that?

How about religion? What percentage are Cathloic or associated with it? Shouldn't that mean there is a little right to have Cathalosism as a default. Look at airports/hospitals that have chaplins, they are almost always Cathloic, but will be aware of the specific religious needs of others.

To tie this together, look at voting, a large chunk of people voted for a Democratic President, but they didn't get it, so whats the tie between popular opinion/voting and popular opinion (like my two examples above?)

It just seems that be default, the largest majority should have their way. Its that way with voting (in general, or course), so why is it ignored for others?

This is all confusing stuff, I see why politics is such a tough career choice-

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[HornEd]

Roadhawg, you haven't posted often... but when you have what you had to say is important. And this time is no exception.

If the "God" of Frances Scott Key's poem (that became the part of the words of the National Anthem in 1931); and the "God" in the Pledge of Allegiance as amended in 1954; and the "God" of the official National Motto... if that "God" has been so weakened in its use that it can no longer be a reflection of an establishment of a religious principle... than maybe it has a place under our Constitution... which was explicitly amended to say, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..."

Frankly, God is a far more meaningful phenomenon than that to me... and I suspect to you and deang as well. But, I would hold that the Bill of Rights are indeed rights... and not privileges. As an American, I have a right to worship my own deity in my own way... and I resent having a dollar bill or a pledge dictate to me a god concept when it is expressly forbidden in the fundamental law of the land.

It is time for America to grow up... and be patriotic for the good reasons inherent in our constitution... and not for some johnny-come-lately religious rhetoric added to whip up public support for going to war against the British, the Confederacy, and the North Koreans et al. It is also time for Americans to show their moral fiber in a way that doesn't make a pretext of speaking for God Almighty. Let us embrace our world community as a secular nation of devout citizens... for only in that light can we find peace, prosperity and the opportunity to get more people to share our view. -HornED

[chickey]

Apparently the judge just stayed his own controversial decision

http://www.msnbc.com/news/772714.asp?0na=x2102HW0-&cp1=1

C

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My System

This message has been edited by chickey on 06-27-2002 at 03:59 PM

[htxpert]

Eric Said

"OK, I'm still craving a hot dog on the 4th."

Eric, I am deeply offended by this statement

I worship the sacred cow and I do not believe

you should have the right to eat my cow on

this day of Glory.I am so insulted by this remark that I am going to petition the SF court to ban all hotdog

sales on the 4th.My suggjestion is to try a nice

Tofu Dog,It may be a little difficult to BBQ but it is

much less offensive to me

[forresthump2]

thought you might be interested in tripod's website. beware these guys on here with only a liberal agenda.

http://members.tripod.com/questions5/islamicmonths/id18.htm

and how about this Clipped dude? typical liberal. LOL

should be "cerebrum clipped & shorn".

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Go Forth and Hump the World

[HornEd]

Kenratboy... now your thinking your way to the heart of the matter. Your error is that this is NOT a Democracy... Majority is not supposed to be the rule in this country, it's just the way votes are counted...

Get back to what started all this, the Pledge, that's what you posted your grumble about. It says "I pledge allegiance to the flag and to the Republic for which it stands..." Yep, that's right, we are a Republic... not a Democracy. Oh some people try to say we are a representative democracy... but the long and short of it is that We have a body of federal law, chief of which is the constitution, which cannot be changed by the little people, except perhaps by revolution. Otherwise, we little people must rely on our elected representatives to fulfill our desires... or try again next election.

If you check out http://www.vineyard.net/vineyard/history/pledge.htm you will be able to tell Forresthump2 that the Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by a Christian Socialist Francis Bellamy... who was pressured out of the pulpit in Boston for the socialist content of his sermons. I was surprised that Forrest would take such a strong stand defending the work of the radical left. That either puts Forrest way left of where I am... or says something about his fact checking. And to think that I have been one of the defenders of Forrest's rights. And I still do.

The pledge was based on the utopian concepts of his expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels. Francis wanted to include equality in the mix... but declined because of members on the approving committee who were against equality for women and African Americans.

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, "under God," to the Pledge to make it both a patriotic oath and a public prayer. Bellamy's granddaughter said that her then deceased grandfather would have resented this change.

But, then again, her grandfather was not a right wing politician trying to fire up the population for a pseudo-holy war in Southeast Asia.

It is amazing how prone we Americans are to shoot from the hip when it comes to our self-styled concepts of American Traditions... especially on Democratic notions that are legally restrained by our Republic's Supreme Law of the Land... which has always been kept a few degrees of separation from the people... for fear that an unthinking majority upset this noble experiment in governance. -HornED

[Eric D]

htexpert, this damn tofu dogs keep burning to a crisp. I'm sure it's the nitrites that keep my dogs coming out so well. An as far as offending anyone who worships sacred cows by eating hot dogs, I'm not exactly conviced there's much meat-like product in those things. Perhaps as a 49-er fan, I should try to BBQ some quiche? BTW, I'm only going along with you because you sold me my R3-series HT speakers. I'm humoring you so you don't turn on any special sensors that report what I play in the privacy of my own home to the Feds.

kenrat..., Methinks the founding fathers carefully set it up so sometimes a simple majority *isn't* enough. But sometimes we still have to take the step of overturning an constitutional amendment we've found to be a mistake.

That reminds me - I think I'll have a beer with that dog on the 4th. And I won't worry about the DEA busting down my door to see if the Pink Floyd on my stereo means there are drugs on-premises.

Eric

This message has been edited by Eric D on 06-27-2002 at 05:01 PM

[HornEd]

Yeah, Chickey, his move assures that there will be no effect of the ruling as law until after the a wider panel of Ninth Circuit judges review the opinion. The Ninth Circuit Court has the unenviable record of having more rulings overturned by the Supreme Court than any other Circuit Court.

Predictably, the politicians are lining up with outraged moral majority members... and jurists are pretty much split on a very controversial issue... generally the Supreme Court goes with what it perceives to be the popular mood of the people... which would be against the constitutional provisions on the subject, IMHO.

Again, I appreciate Klipsch allowing us to have this discussion so close to the 4th of July... for it gives all of us Americans to review the basis of our patriotism... and it gives non-Americans around the world the opportunity to see a democratic groundswell in our very special Republic. -HornED

[forresthump2]

Horny this IS a Democratic Republic. Something for everybody. Such as if you don't like the law you can call it a republic and if you do agree you can call it a democracy. LOL Typical Lib manipulation of gov. Gives people the right to go from being a successful GOP businessman risk taker to a bitter Dem litigous Robin Hood when the risks turn against.

Fact is just like Christmas, the Pledge has become a cultural institution that has evolved with us in the USA, and the lib agenda of taking away rights from others to suit their own goals is again doomed for failure. Only got a breath of life from a partial Liberal Kangaroo Court in your loony bin of american society. Already it has been stayed and ordered to sustain a full court review. That includes some judges with some sense. LOL

This reminds me so much of the biased FLA Supreme Court

that started making their own law and changing their own rules to such a disgusting extent that only a higher court could stop such madness. Talk about the system working. But now all the Rad Lib crybabies will come out saying that the GOP politics and moral majority are what stopped justice. LOL - Just shows what loons the left truly are.

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Go Forth and Hump the World