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La Scala and 15-16 wpc.....


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Wasn't sure what forum to put this in so I put it here and in the technical question forum. Would a 15wpc Marantz 2216B drive a pair of '97 La Scala's sufficently? Provide adequate bass, and be loud enough? Any input as always, is very appreciated!!

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I had a 8.5 watt SET amp that did great with all of my horns, bass was fine. I also tried a 25 watt class D tripath amp and it had no bottom (It also had no weight, pretty lightly built). So, it depends on the amp but I bet your heavy Marantz would be fine.

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What do you consider adequate bass and volume? I use 3.5 wpc amps on my LS and find them adequate in the bass department and can get loud enough that you can't begin to carry on a conversation in the room. A lot of folks here think you have to have a sub if you have LaScalas, but I am not one of those.

How loud you talkin' about?

Bruce

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Wasn't sure what forum to put this in so I put it here and in the technical question forum. Would a 15wpc Marantz 2216B drive a pair of '97 La Scala's sufficently? Provide adequate bass, and be loud enough? Any input as always, is very appreciated!!

I used a 2216B with Klipschorns (identical to La Scala in efficiency, mid driver & horn, and tweeter) for about a year. I thought I heard a slight amount of distortion. The dealer said that the 0.15% harmonic distortion in the 2216B would be inaudible, and it would be operating at far below maximum level almost all of the time with Khorns. I still heard a certain lack of transparency and a very subtle fuzzyness.

The next amp I used was a Luxman 100 wpc integrated amp. It sounded wonderful with the Khorns. In fact, it was the best sounding solid state amp I ever had -- and, up until that time I bought that differences between pieces of electronic equipment were inaudible. I reversed myself, thanks to the Luxman.

As to power and bass, I later had a power amp with a (so called) peak reading meter. While the Khorns usually needed somewhere between unreadable (below 0.06 watts, the lowest figure on the meter) and 1 or 2 watts, with a very few ultra loud passages registering 6.3 watts, on the climax of one Mahler Symphony, the meter read 24 watts, for a medium length peak. Although the books continue to say that the loudest passages playable by a symphony orchestra are usually lie between about 150 and 600 Hz, the blunt peak of the Mahler had a LOT of bass, and I wonder if I would have gotten it if I had been using the 2216B.

The 2216B is a very inepensive solid state receiver. The 2216B was produced during a period in which Marantz's reputation was rather bad, compared to the Old Days when Saul B. Marantz was running the company, and compared to now, after Marantz's comeback.

One study (good or bad?) indicated that a good tube amp can deliver brief peaks at 6 times the power in watts as a solid state amp with the same power rating (RMS, I believe), albeit with great but "soft" distortion, so some of the people who run low power tube amps with La Scala or speakers of similar efficiency may not have a problem because of tube amps' superior peak capacity (if it exists). I'm aware that some forum members doubted this study, and I'm not taking a position.

All in all, you might want a more powerful, and better receiver.

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Wasn't sure what forum to put this in so I put it here and in the technical question forum. Would a 15wpc Marantz 2216B drive a pair of '97 La Scala's sufficently? Provide adequate bass, and be loud enough? Any input as always, is very appreciated!!

I'm not nearly as smart as most on this forum. I can say that the marantz gear I have had I liked.

Never had that particular model though.

Someone said the La Scala's are as efficient as the KHorns. We have 6 bedroom house, and one evening I got an attitude problem and ran about 1/2 volume on my mc30''s. So I would guess about 15wpc. Well the wife came down stairs from the other end of the house and I could see her yelling at me, her lips were moving. Couldn't hear a word she was saying, nothing but music. After pausing the tunes, and discussing the situation I did turn down the music to a much lower volume. I may have seen murder in her eyes. Besides I'm not sure how much longer I could have listened at that volume before sustaining further brain damage.

My son has La Scala's that I gave him. When his neighbor across the street cranks his music up to a disturbing level. Paul just turns his speakers toward the front of his house and opens doors and windows, then lets loose with about 85wpc. His neighbor told Paul that when that happens he can't even listen to his music in his own house.

I suspect 15wpc will do ya. But as the Gentleman on your other post said, he was unhappy with his experince with that particular Marantz. Could be he just got a lemon, or those were poor units.

I have enjoyed marantz 2270, 2285b, 2325, as well as some of the Sansui line of products, 9090, and 9090DB particularly. All of those have much more wpc then the unit you mentioned. But not being an audiophile, I find wpc kind of like horsepower. It's nice to have more then you need.

I do tend to ramble. Is it possible to try the unit before you buy it? Having been made in the 70's it may have issues due to time.

...............................Taz

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one evening I got an attitude problem and ran about 1/2 volume on my mc30''s. So I would guess about 15wpc. Well the wife came down stairs from the other end of the house and I could see her yelling at me, her lips were moving. Couldn't hear a word she was saying, nothing but music. After pausing the tunes, and discussing the situation I did turn down the music

Somehow we get the last word but, it is usually yes dear, lol.[:$]

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"about 1/2 volume on my mc30''s."

You mean only 6dB into clipping?

A 430 with the loudness on will go into clipping on FM with the volume control below 10 o'clock.

Very few preamps won't drive an amplifier hard into clipping just past noon on the volume control.

Most people can't hear they are into clipping until they are about 10dB past where it actually starts to clip (as seen on an oscilloscope).

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"about 1/2 volume on my mc30''s."

You mean only 6dB into clipping?

A 430 with the loudness on will go into clipping on FM with the volume control below 10 o'clock.

Very few preamps won't drive an amplifier hard into clipping just past noon on the volume control.

Most people can't hear they are into clipping until they are about 10dB past where it actually starts to clip (as seen on an oscilloscope).

[:$] I guess it is probably so if you say it is.. A lot I don't know.

Does having a Tube preamp drivingTube amps make any difference over SS as to clipping?

Currently have it the speakers hooked up to Marantz 2325, but have not turned it up. YET. Still waiting my turn to have Marantz 2500 gone thru.

Then will give that one a go. Should have plenty of (head room?) before clipping? I think I might be afraid to turn that one up.

They say ignorance is Bliss, but I've found it to be a big PIA when that Warm Brown Stuff Hits the Fan!........................................Taz

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haven't been able to sign on my home PC in a long time, I can read, but I can't sign in to post, but all the crap on this thread and I just had to comment so badly that I am on my wifes PC.

First understand that I have owned La Scalas and Klipschorns that are 104dB efficient at 1 watt at 1 meter.

I presently own 7 TSCMs, some Klipsch literature rates them at 106dB efficient and some literature rates them at 108dB.

Regaurdless, while eack Klipschorn runs one K-77 and one k-55, each Tscm runs two K-77s and 4 K-55s.

With 7 TSCMs, that is 28 K-55 midrange and 14 K-77 tweeters.

Regaurdless, my maximum accustic output is considerably greater than what you guys are discussing.

I run 3 Nakamichi PA-7 amps and a Nakamichi PA-7II on the center channel. That's 200 watts RMS on 6 channels and 225 watts RMS on the center channel.

Most pre amps go into Klip before 12 oclock??? My Klip lights don't begin to flicker at all until past 3:30.

AS for driving people out of the room at a hand full of watts??? and over powering the neighbors at 85 watts, you need to come over to my house for a wake up call as we obviously have different oppinions on what kind of levels to jam at, I haven't even discussed my six 18 inch woofers in the system.

As for the cowering down to the she who must be obayed thing, I would invite those people overe for a reality check as well, you don't fill your house up with a bunch of ugly black Pro Speakers by not being in charge of your domain.

Lastly, I would reintroduce that your going to chase people out with a couple watts from your tube amp??? Tubes can sound good once they are warmed up, I understand that, but your going to make listening uncofortable at a hand full of watts??? Really???? Really now??? Time to come over for a reality check!!

Roger

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haven't been able to sign on my home PC in a long time, I can read, but I can't sign in to post, but all the crap on this thread and I just had to comment so badly that I am on my wifes PC.

First understand that I have owned La Scalas and Klipschorns that are 104dB efficient at 1 watt at 1 meter.

I presently own 7 TSCMs, some Klipsch literature rates them at 106dB efficient and some literature rates them at 108dB.

Regaurdless, while eack Klipschorn runs one K-77 and one k-55, each Tscm runs two K-77s and 4 K-55s.

With 7 TSCMs, that is 28 K-55 midrange and 14 K-77 tweeters.

Regaurdless, my maximum accustic output is considerably greater than what you guys are discussing.

I run 3 Nakamichi PA-7 amps and a Nakamichi PA-7II on the center channel. That's 200 watts RMS on 6 channels and 225 watts RMS on the center channel.

Most pre amps go into Klip before 12 oclock??? My Klip lights don't begin to flicker at all until past 3:30.

AS for driving people out of the room at a hand full of watts??? and over powering the neighbors at 85 watts, you need to come over to my house for a wake up call as we obviously have different oppinions on what kind of levels to jam at, I haven't even discussed my six 18 inch woofers in the system.

As for the cowering down to the she who must be obayed thing, I would invite those people overe for a reality check as well, you don't fill your house up with a bunch of ugly black Pro Speakers by not being in charge of your domain.

Lastly, I would reintroduce that your going to chase people out with a couple watts from your tube amp??? Tubes can sound good once they are warmed up, I understand that, but your going to make listening uncofortable at a hand full of watts??? Really???? Really now??? Time to come over for a reality check!!

Roger

[Y] Let er rip Roger. May the real jammers step forward. I would love to hear it.

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It would appear that we have a clear winner for the "King of my domain" award and the same person takes home the award for "1 upper of the year", and "Most Prententious Post". Im glad I am happy with my piddly La Scalas and their single k-55 and k-77's. Good to see my post can invoke such emotion. [Y]

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One study (good or bad?) indicated that a good tube amp can deliver brief peaks at 6 times the power in watts as a solid state amp with the same power rating (RMS, I believe), albeit with great but "soft" distortion, so some of the people who run low power tube amps with La Scala or speakers of similar efficiency may not have a problem because of tube amps' superior peak capacity (if it exists). I'm aware that some forum members doubted this study, and I'm not taking a position.

What you have described is called "dynamic headroom". Either tubes or solid state amplifiers can be designed for lots of dynamic headroom. The power supply is usually the limiting factor, with stiffly regulated supplies generally causing the amplifier to have less headroom.

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It would appear that we have a clear winner for the "King of my domain" award and the same person takes home the award for "1 upper of the year", and "Most Prententious Post". Im glad I am happy with my piddly La Scalas and their single k-55 and k-77's. Good to see my post can invoke such emotion. Yes

Philly,

King of my domain, yes.... Married to the same Lady for 25 years. The house was mine prior to marriage and she came with student loans and a brand new car totally financed. She has total say so about the bedroom, kitchen, bathroom, dining room, the rest of the house, but the living room is my domain and I wont be told how it is to be furnished. I could see if my wife had company or the kids had homework, or if my wife asked nicely for me to turn it down and gave me a descent reason like a headache I would surely turn it down, but if she came at me yelling, she would receive a swift reality check about who makes the final descission.

As for the one upman award, my post wasn't directed at you, and there is a member that has a 7 channel Jubilee system that obviously trumps mine. I obviously like the sound of the Jubilees better, however I will say that Fyrpower recently downsized his system, sold his Jubilees, and kept his TSCMs stating they were plenty good enough.

Most Pretentious post?? I think not! Maby self indulgant but nothing I stated was of exagerated self importance.

The LaScalas are certainly not piddly speakers and PWK himself said that what the world needs is a good 8 watt amplifier, but I would add to that, it depends on if you do all of your listening at critical listening levels, the material being listened too, obviously if concert levels of that material depending on composition are wanting to be obtained, is the source material prefered rock and are jamming levels wanting to be obtained, most importantly and not even discussed in this thread is what volume of space you and others are trying to attain your preferance levels at, also composition of room. There are alot of factors obviously other than just the wattage being pushed to be taken into consideration.

The point of my previous post is that while 2 watts or 13 watts may be adequate for some peoples preferance of listening, it obviously is not for mine and very well may not be for yours as no pertanent listening data was even asked of you in this thread before these guys started making comparisons of wattage to there own systems wattages. Maybe you have your LaScalas in the bathroom squeezed in like a giant pair of headphones, then, in that situation, 2 watts probably would be enough as you could push 107dB at one meter, but as for all this uncomfortable listening at a hand full of watts some claim..... give me a break!!! Been there, done that, who they trying to kid???

Roger

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One study (good or bad?) indicated that a good tube amp can deliver brief peaks at 6 times the power in watts as a solid state amp with the same power rating (RMS, I believe), albeit with great but "soft" distortion, so some of the people who run low power tube amps with La Scala or speakers of similar efficiency may not have a problem because of tube amps' superior peak capacity (if it exists). I'm aware that some forum members doubted this study, and I'm not taking a position.

What you have described is called "dynamic headroom". Either tubes or solid state amplifiers can be designed for lots of dynamic headroom. The power supply is usually the limiting factor, with stiffly regulated supplies generally causing the amplifier to have less headroom.

GarryC

I would have to agree with everything Don stated.

In addition, I would add that if we are just going to stereotype all tube amps and all SS amps as a whole, it is generaly accepted that tube amps have a softer and more pleasant to SOME... midrange. Myself, I refer to this as coloring the sound of the orriginal material and is the reason I don't listen to BOSE speakers.

As far as dynamic headroom, SS amps in general are thought to put out more Bass, especially at low listening volumes and this would be stereotypical of the amp that has more dynamic headroom, albeit most SS gear is 100 or 200 watts per channel VS: 20 watts or less of tube amplification, not apples to apples in comparrison, but that larger SS gear should generally have more dynamic headroom at a lower settin where the tube amp is living. JMHO

Roger

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haven't been able to sign on my home PC in a long time, I can read, but I can't sign in to post, but all the crap on this thread and I just had to comment so badly that I am on my wifes PC.

First understand that I have owned La Scalas and Klipschorns that are 104dB efficient at 1 watt at 1 meter.

I presently own 7 TSCMs, some Klipsch literature rates them at 106dB efficient and some literature rates them at 108dB.

Regaurdless, while eack Klipschorn runs one K-77 and one k-55, each Tscm runs two K-77s and 4 K-55s.

With 7 TSCMs, that is 28 K-55 midrange and 14 K-77 tweeters.

Regaurdless, my maximum accustic output is considerably greater than what you guys are discussing.

I run 3 Nakamichi PA-7 amps and a Nakamichi PA-7II on the center channel. That's 200 watts RMS on 6 channels and 225 watts RMS on the center channel.

Most pre amps go into Klip before 12 oclock??? My Klip lights don't begin to flicker at all until past 3:30.

AS for driving people out of the room at a hand full of watts??? and over powering the neighbors at 85 watts, you need to come over to my house for a wake up call as we obviously have different oppinions on what kind of levels to jam at, I haven't even discussed my six 18 inch woofers in the system.

As for the cowering down to the she who must be obayed thing, I would invite those people overe for a reality check as well, you don't fill your house up with a bunch of ugly black Pro Speakers by not being in charge of your domain.

Lastly, I would reintroduce that your going to chase people out with a couple watts from your tube amp??? Tubes can sound good once they are warmed up, I understand that, but your going to make listening uncofortable at a hand full of watts??? Really???? Really now??? Time to come over for a reality check!!

Roger

Yes Let er rip Roger. May the real jammers step forward. I would love to hear it.

What part of Indiana are you from Stormin??? I reside in Bluffton, Ohio and you would be welcome to come for a listen.

Roger

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I don't need to be King of my domain, and would not want to be. My wife of 38 years fully supports loud music and large speaker enclosures. She knows that a passage in a Beethoven symphony marked ff is a different piece of music if it is played at a significantly lower level, and she knows that playing a section of Bernstein marked ff and presto barbaro in a way that is not barbaric would be just plain wrong. She is my partner in every way, including the building of a dedicated music room / home theater. As to the living room, an old, large Klipsch subwoofer sits happily among the antiques. We buy into PWK's statement that peaks of 115 dB at one's ears are necessary to reproduce the "blood stirring levels" of a live symphony orchestra. I should note that we are aware that sustained very high SPLs, as encountered in Rock & Roll, especially on stage or a few homes I could mention, is harder on the ears than the brief(er) peaks one gets in classical music, jazz, and film scores, so we are careful with Rock. Any guest coming over to see a movie knows that it will be played at theater level, which to us means adjusting the dialog to a realistic and plausible level, and letting the chips fall where they may, which often makes pants legs flap in the wind, and at least once, made it seem like we were all socked in the shoulder. One very good friend is alarmed by this, so after a long conference, we all mutually decided she would bring earplugs when she visits.

What you have described is called "dynamic headroom". Either tubes or solid state amplifiers can be designed for lots of dynamic headroom. The power supply is usually the limiting factor, with stiffly regulated supplies generally causing the amplifier to have less headroom.

Do (good) tube amps, as a class, generally have more dynamic headroom, or is that a myth?

As to stiffly v.s. loosely regulated power supplies, I remember people either praising or condemming Phase Linear for having loose ones.

On the subject of Marantz, their reputation grows out of the wonderful amps they made in the '50s and '60s. Like the Marantz Model 8b or the Model 9.

I heard a Model 9 A-Bd against a McIntosh when I was a teen ager, and never forgot the sound. It seemed better, and slightly "sweeter" than the Mac, which itself was among the very best I'd ever heard. Marantz now has a regular line, which is good, and a ultra ultra line that may be even better. How good would the old, old Marantzs be compared to modern amp? I don't know, but I saw a pair of Model 9s online for $14,000.

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Do (good) tube amps, as a class, generally have more dynamic headroom, or is that a myth?

Amplifiers that have supplies with stiff regulation have less dynamic headroom than ones with loosely regulated supplies, tube or SS. Most vintage amplifiers do not have stiffly regulated supplies, and that would include all tube amplifiers made before higher power SS amplifiers were invented. "Newer" tube equipment mostly copied vintage designs, so most of them have the potential for higher dynamic output. The old NAD SS amps from the late '70s had around 6 dB dynamic headroom so these 25 watt amps played like they had 100 watts. These had the highest dynamic headroom I've heard of, though there may be others with more.

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