Deang Posted June 19, 2013 Author Share Posted June 19, 2013 First time I ever saw a facebook page was your link. Usually I get a sign-up to facebook page when linking there. That and the fact that it is near 100degrees around places outside in the shade/pool instead of in here, with me and the AC. A sackful of people do not want to give facebook all their vital stats. IMLO Really? You get a sign up page? That's strange. I thought is was publically accessible without having to go through that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Yours was the exception as I recall. Do not know about interacting but could see pics and discussion there, from your link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Yeah.........I have seen the new ALK universal on AL's site, and read that Dean builds it now. Thank God to whoever decided to use something other than Sonicaps. Nothing wrong with Sonicaps for the appropriate application, but for ALK products I'll say "Good idea" to whomever decided to upgrade. I don't use passives much anymore but I spent thousands of dollars on ALK networks of all types over a period of years. Those designs responded "splendidly" to upgraded parts..........unlike the Klipsch networks I spent big money on trying upgraded parts. Sounded WORSE. The point is that those are premium designs and the better parts are definitely worth the money in those designs. You'll hear the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrown0678 Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Deang my comment in re-guard to Al , is in no way intended to be a slight, i try to be as careful as i can to convey my thoughts , i believe Al designs and the results that were glean through his efforts is well documented. I'm,not an Engineer though i imagine good ones not only deals with data but also the resulting sound , the question was asked why no response ,its great to have testimonial, a good sales man needs an audience knowing his product will exceed his competitors.. Knowing there is nothing inferior in your offering let it be known. I'm sure PW Klipsch wasn't shy about the sound of his speakers, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Hi Gary, Well, you've probably already seen my last post and now know that what I offering to send around is in fact what you already own -- though built with some nicer stuff. You're certainly more than welcome to make some comments on what you think about them if you want! Have you seen the new ALK? Has ANYONE see the new ALK? Yeah, we crossed paths Deano. I'll have to say no to this. Still loving my Jrs and see no reason to change. Nice of you to offer though. Anyone out there using As or AAs, even newly built versions.....you should really hear what you're missing. Once you make the switch, going back to stock networks is impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share Posted June 20, 2013 I never should have let Al talk me into the changing the name of this thing, it has caused nothing but confusion. The ALKJr and Super AA is same crossover. This crossover IS the ALKJr built with entry level capacitors to get the cost down. I decided to go back to the name originally given to it because I wanted to build two versions of it -- which is why this one is called the Super AA/2. There is a Super AA/1 which is more like what Gary is using -- same circuit -- built with upscale parts. The stock crossovers sound really good built with the paper in oils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Melton Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Hi Dean I sent you a email. Are these the same as the cornscala-wall economy crossovers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share Posted June 20, 2013 Nope. Sorry, but this design will only work with the Klipschorn, LaScala, or Belle Klipsch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Melton Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Thanks anyway for the great offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runninshine Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Dean, I need to get a minute and call you. I really like this deal and love my ALK uni's with my Khorns and now need something special for my Belles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Okay everyone, level with me. Why isn't anyone interested in trying this? Where is the curiosity that really is the thing that drives our hobby? The goal is seeing if I can increase your pleasure in listening. Sure, I might make a little bit of money, but is that idea really so offensive, I mean, people recommend other equipment to each other here (which drives up sales for companies like Oppo, Emotiva, etc.). This is an opportunity to try something unique for very little money, and people around here used to jump on stuff like this. Did I offend, is it because I used entry level capacitors, or something else. It would great hearing the reasons, even if they involve a butt chewing. It maybe a subject pretty hard to talk about with you as we likely have two different philosophies but since you asked I'll comment on a few things. Some of us are DIYers such as my self. So I'm perfectly capable of rolling my own. I've written a lot on networks trying to get some people to take an interest in networks mostly over on audiokarma. But really I'm more of an amplifier designer. I just wanted more from my speakers and was lucky to have some foresight into other peoples work and took some blind chances some ended up being revelatory and some not so. Some people have taken offers to hear my work and drove as much as a 1000mi to hear it. Its always nice to hear someone really being moved by ones work and seeing their whole perspective on audio change. A lot of times people will point their fingers at components and think its got to be this or that that is doing what they are hearing but really its the whole system as I like to say. I got started on networks because of one of my friends who built a DIY version of ALK's Universal Networks. When I heard it, it made his LaScala's listenable for the first time for me! That influenced me to DIY an outboard network using what I felt was subjectively superior parts for my Forte's. So I have had an influence on a few people through the yrs but its hard for people to hear the light sort of speak! As I read of one major audio buff who has a site on high end sound said through the years he had only met a couple of people with the same tastes as himself so I have come to appreciate his comment and to accept there will be people with their own taste and their own direction even if it's a direction that doesn't make any sense but as I look at it people have a right to live and learn as I say just as I have learned. And whats of interest to them maybe less so for me and so on. I think the best approach for demoing superior networks is going to be an actual side by side speaker demo's or speaker swap outs. And then the demo has to to be pretty traumatic to the people hearing it. As familiar as I am of my own network mods I once forgot just how much better they were till I did a swap of my friends demo stock Fortes I was using. Such as my close friend No Regrats below who is a jazz musician, likes live music several times a week and has one heck of a sound system himself. Comments like these don't get much better but it was a dramatic contrast that I have contrast before with literally having guests in blank stare's or totally speechless. Literally running outside to their vehicle to get more of their music. Funny thing, While the Forte network as ALK likes to point out is not electrically correct it goes to show what subjectively superior components can do with basically the stock values. Other than the DCR's.I really don't care if they match because I don't find a serious significance in it after all the the crossover as ALK says is not electrically correct to begin with like the 100 ohm or so impedance of the mid, Of course this is a whole another story. When he said below that the Forte created the biggest sound stage he had ever heard, I can tell you that stock network barely gets out side of the speakers boundaries. I had this setup on an 18ft wall 9ft apart yet one can perceive ambient room ques indicating the sheer room size of the recording acoustic with very defined lateral imaging has extended as much as 10ft to the left and right of each speaker. Granted not everyone cares for big stages or what I call life size imaging but I do. Its funny to take a grill cover off and look at the tiny horns and ask yourself how the heck can they do this? One thing is that I have learned is that not all associated equipment will allow this. It all has to have the same capability CDP's, amps, preamps and so on. Otherwise the modified Fortes will point any weakness out period.This can result in preconceived notions of the subjective value of doing what I did to the networks. If the gear used is not capable of as much as the Forte.This has result in some pieces of gear barely getting past the speaker boundaries which is no fault of the speakersAll though I use some pretty high end caps I have found the Inductors to be way more serious on the influence of sound. Iron Cores just shrink the sound stage from my perspective and I find them very inconsistent or not totally even in their coherency of their frequencies that there being used in for my tastes and because of this I'll never use them again. There is something very right about the North Creek Inductors. And regardless of "Q" factors and such. Try reading this account http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/messages/14/147282.html Here's another guy that went with some of my minimums to get his Fortes moving out of the gate http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=516254 One of my guests that I had here that I designed a pair of extreme 45 amplifiers for was using some 2A3's before was using ALK ES networks for his LaScala's I told him that some engineers like Dr Bruce Edgar prefer simpler networks with high efficiency speakers. I have seen in print where ALK has pointed out that for low power he thought they sounded better as well. I know ALk likes SS high power. I can see the need for ES protecting the drivers. My friend wished he had been told of this. I suggested a DIY ALK Universal. It was built using the famed Sonicraft caps with a Dave Slagel Autotransformer along with North Creek Inductors and Duelund resistors with the resulting sound being much more pleased with. One other area I had experience with was Litz Inductors and yes I know the "Q" factors can't compare. I tried a 14AWG Solen Litz with a Crites Titanium diaphragms and it was just awful very grating on the ears. When I went back to my 8AWG North Creeks it was like a match made in heaven. It had body authority with great ease. Even my local audio club president said it was the best horn high end that he had heard. So much for the #'s so I went with the subjective value. BTW I use a minimalist system with no preamp just CDP direct and 10 watt SET amplifiers but not your typical SET amps by any means. My CDP is also heavily modified. It goes to show a speaker or amplifier doesn't have to be big to get big. For me its all about the first watt. In the end you can go by the #'s but in the end its subjectively why a lot of people buy. I hope this gives you some insight or some idea's. I just visted your website and found it well written and I see a little more varity in part choices which I think is good, It would be nice to see some inductor choices as well like Mundorf which has an option to vacuum varnish impreagnate their coils as my own North Creeks are. I have heard a speaker with Mundorf caps and coils that has been a show stopper for a few years now with excellent coherancy from top to bottom. Perhaps were not so far apart as I thought. Quote: Originally Posted by No Regrets Hello gentlemen, I am not one who posts much on forums, but I cannot hold myself back any longer. SET12 has been a great friend and audio buddy of mine for many years now. I have seen his talents in regards to diy audio grow from doing audio repairs, to modifying circuits, to doing some absolutely outstanding scratch build projects. This guy is incredible with the knowledge that he has accrued over the years and he has earned my total and complete respect. It is both an honor and my pleasure to have him as my friend. So what has prompted me to write this post? Let me tell ya......I was at SET12's house today and we had about a 3 hour listening session, like we do from time to time. Now keep in mind, he has been doing a lot of mod's to his speakers which has been well documented here over the past 30 some pages. I have heard these speakers of his ever since he has had them and have heard them after each step of the modification process. Each time I could hear improvements in what he was doing. A few weeks ago, I was at his home listening to his system and I told him that I cannot believe how far these speakers have come along since he has started. These speakers are a different animal......in a completely different league all together and I told him how proud of him I was in what he has accomplished. But I still didn't come on the forum and write about it.....I guess maybe because I just don't feel comfortable writing in "reviewer speak" . So why now? He did something today that not many people have the opportunity to do. He gave me an A/B/A audition of his modified speakers vs. a stock pair of Fortes. We all have made upgrades over time with various aspects of our systems and much of the time we have to rely on our memories of what something used to sound like. Well today, we didn't need our memories and we had quite an experience to say the least. We listened to his first. Beautiful sounding as always. Then we quickly hooked up the stock Fortes. Now please try and understand my intentions as I go on here. I am not trying to be rude, offensive, or disrespectful in any way, shape, or form. I am trying to be constructive with my comments but will be also direct and to the point. When we switched over to the stock Fortes, I could not believe my ears. The difference that I heard from going from the modded Fortes to the stock Fortes was so great that I think I may have been in shock. It has been so long since I have heard a stock pair of Fortes that I had forgotten what they had sounded like. My memory of them were that they were dynamic, fun to listen to, and overall a decent speaker. After listening to the modded Fortes and then switching over to the stock.....I literally could not listen through the entirety of a whole song. They were lifeless, they sounded restrained and congested. They sounded like what detail they had was being smeared. And what got me the most was the tonality. The voice, the piano, the cymbals, etc.....none of it sounded right. I literally asked SET12 to stop playing the song because it was grating on my ears....the listener fatigue was so high, and the sounds coming from the stock speakers were so displeasing that I could not take it any more. Now, I know that these words are probably not going to sit well with a lot of you who own stock Fortes. But please understand me that when I write these things....I am not trying to hurt anyone's feelings. What I am trying to do is light a fire under you to either come and hear SET12's speakers for yourself, or do these mod's and create a monster of a speaker system. With these modded Fortes...the voices, and timbre of instruments sound correct. You do not hear the Klipsch's horns and their resonance distorting the sound as it leaves the speaker. These modded Fortes sound effortless across the entire frequency. Very balanced sounding. I know there are people that think...."I'll upgrade from Fortes to K-horns instead of keeping the Fortes and doing the mod's." Let me tell you from personal experience. That will not be an upgrade and you will have regrets if you do that. I have owned K-horns and I would take SET12's modded Fortes as they are right now any day over the K-horns that I once owned. These modded Fortes sound like each driver had their own amplifier. There was no sign of congestion. They are smooooth! They are full of detail throughout the entire frequency and the entire soundstage (which is the biggest soundstage I have ever heard!) They are full sounding and have dynamics that seem to belie the laws of physics. When you look at these speakers, you certainly will not think that they look very big......but these modded Fortes will beg to differ with you and will win that argument all day long with the sound they throw at you. They are huge sounding! These speakers are no longer Fortes, and I dare say they are no longer Klipsch. I have to believe that they are head and shoulders above and beyond anything Paul Klipsch had ever heard come out of his workshop, and I believe with all my heart that if he could hear SET12's modded Fortes....that he would be as proud of him as I am. These modifications that SET12 has done to these speakers are seriously real upgrades. So many times people will make changes to their audio system hoping for it to be an upgrade in sound and performance and all they end up with is a change in their system.....not necessarily for the better, just something different. I understand that there are financial costs associated with these upgrades, but I will tell you flat out that it will be worth every penny you put into it and many times over. The only regrets that you will have is wondering why you waited so long to do it. If you can't afford to do everything all at once, please do yourself a favor and talk with SET12 and get his opinions on which things to tackle first and which ones make the most sonic benefits for the time and money that you will be willing to put into it. SET12 is a top notch guy and loves to talk about all things audio. He'll steer you in the right direction. And I should probably say that I have no financial interests or ties whatsoever to the proprietors of these various mods. I just want to convey to everyone what I have heard and witnessed so that it may be of help to you. Warmest regards, No Regrets Cheers SET12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 I have read some of the threads on the forte' involving an outboard X-Over to make changes to components of it easier. The listening sessions by the club I found most interesting. The use of exotic,read expensive caps, inductors, peaked my interest greatly. Not having had any Klipsch speaker X-Over upgrades to our Chorus, or forte's, I am curious to find out for myself now as I will be sending my forte' crossovers to *DeanG(one day soon). Am expecting to hear what I feel will be a stock forte' as it sounded when new, or close to it. To experience anything more than that may or may not be the sound I am expecting. May have read in the music session with the forte' something about a larger or better quality inductor producing more accurate bass. In any event, I was considering a DIY or a proffessional overhaul of the forte' crossover's. Having been in a related business for awhile, I understood, understand that the love of my craft caused me to bore some customers to tears about technicals that were neither here nor there in their minds. All they wanted was good, fast, and reasonably priced service. *DeanG appears to have a keen interest in his craft and trade. Heck, he was going to tell me how to DIY a refresh to my crossovers. I think that very generous of him, especially as it would have a direct effect upon his pocketbook. Needless to say, after having been in business with some success, I have no compunction at all with a generous with information person. Saving the DIY for another day. Go *Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 I have read some of the threads on the forte' involving an outboard X-Over to make changes to components of it easier. The listening sessions by the club I found most interesting. The use of exotic,read expensive caps, inductors, peaked my interest greatly. Not having had any Klipsch speaker X-Over upgrades to our Chorus, or forte's, I am curious to find out for myself now as I will be sending my forte' crossovers to *DeanG(one day soon). Am expecting to hear what I feel will be a stock forte' as it sounded when new, or close to it. To experience anything more than that may or may not be the sound I am expecting. May have read in the music session with the forte' something about a larger or better quality inductor producing more accurate bass. In any event, I was considering a DIY or a proffessional overhaul of the forte' crossover's. Having been in a related business for awhile, I understood, understand that the love of my craft caused me to bore some customers to tears about technicals that were neither here nor there in their minds. All they wanted was good, fast, and reasonably priced service. Forte's are GREAT speakers at their core but there is hidden greatness within a stock pair! You may hear them as they were new if this is your preferance, but unless you go far enough it isn't likely you'll hear them as above! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 I have read some of the threads on the forte' involving an outboard X-Over to make changes to components of it easier. The listening sessions by the club I found most interesting. The use of exotic,read expensive caps, inductors, peaked my interest greatly. Not having had any Klipsch speaker X-Over upgrades to our Chorus, or forte's, I am curious to find out for myself now as I will be sending my forte' crossovers to *DeanG(one day soon). Am expecting to hear what I feel will be a stock forte' as it sounded when new, or close to it. To experience anything more than that may or may not be the sound I am expecting. May have read in the music session with the forte' something about a larger or better quality inductor producing more accurate bass. In any event, I was considering a DIY or a proffessional overhaul of the forte' crossover's. Having been in a related business for awhile, I understood, understand that the love of my craft caused me to bore some customers to tears about technicals that were neither here nor there in their minds. All they wanted was good, fast, and reasonably priced service. Forte's are GREAT speakers at their core but there is hidden greatness within a stock pair! You may hear them as they were new if this is your preferance, but unless you go far enough it isn't likely you'll hear them as above! Fair enough! I have to start somewhere. Hearing a newer set of ForteII's recently has led me to believe, I at the very least need an refresh. I plan on expressing my before and after. Thinking that my forte' could be 85 vintage versus 90's II's that were packed away for the last 8 years approx. until I revived them for another forum member. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 I have read some of the threads on the forte' involving an outboard X-Over to make changes to components of it easier. The listening sessions by the club I found most interesting. The use of exotic,read expensive caps, inductors, peaked my interest greatly. Not having had any Klipsch speaker X-Over upgrades to our Chorus, or forte's, I am curious to find out for myself now as I will be sending my forte' crossovers to *DeanG(one day soon). Am expecting to hear what I feel will be a stock forte' as it sounded when new, or close to it. To experience anything more than that may or may not be the sound I am expecting. May have read in the music session with the forte' something about a larger or better quality inductor producing more accurate bass. In any event, I was considering a DIY or a proffessional overhaul of the forte' crossover's. Having been in a related business for awhile, I understood, understand that the love of my craft caused me to bore some customers to tears about technicals that were neither here nor there in their minds. All they wanted was good, fast, and reasonably priced service. Forte's are GREAT speakers at their core but there is hidden greatness within a stock pair! You may hear them as they were new if this is your preferance, but unless you go far enough it isn't likely you'll hear them as above! Fair enough! I have to start somewhere. Hearing a newer set of ForteII's recently has led me to believe, I at the very least need an refresh. I plan on expressing my before and after. Thinking that my forte' could be 85 vintage versus 90's II's that were packed away for the last 8 years approx. until I revived them for another forum member. Thanks Thank You! For the acknowledgement! "Fair enough!" Your right you have to start some where! and I did just that, then I built upon it. I have been fortunate enough to hear and own some very good speakers through the years, I even got to hear Klipsch Flagship P39F's a couple of yrs ago and recently at the last Chicago Audio Show Volti Audio Speakers simler to Klipsch http://www.voltiaudio.com/ which I enjoyed. Both of these speakers are in the $20,000 category. The mods I did to the Forte allow it to compete with these speakers very easily at just a fraction of the investment. Pretty amazing when a pair of Fortes can sound as big as the Volti and even sound for the most part more extended in the low end then with Volti even with the hidden sub they were using and with a recording I have been listening to for over 20yrs. Stay in touch! SET12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Thank You! For the acknowledgement! "Fair enough!" Your right you have to start some where! and I did just that, then I built upon it. I have been fortunate enough to hear and own some very good speakers through the years, I even got to hear Klipsch Flagship P39F's a couple of yrs ago and recently at the last Chicago Audio Show Volti Audio Speakers simler to Klipsch http://www.voltiaudio.com/ which I enjoyed. Both of these speakers are in the $20,000 category. The mods I did to the Forte allow it to compete with these speakers very easily at just a fraction of the investment. Pretty amazing when a pair of Fortes can sound as big as the Volti and even sound for the most part more extended in the low end then with Volti even with the hidden sub they were using and with a recording I have been listening to for over 20yrs. Stay in touch! SET12 Interesting experiences and, fortunate indeed from my perspective. I feel I can see why the forte' can compete in the broader area of sound reproduction with the high end products mentioned. I will be continuing to follow the club's sessions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 Wow, I just wanted some input as to why maybe more weren't taking advantage of the offer. Things like the fact that it's summer, etc. made good sense. You're right about the fact that we have different approaches, and yes, I find much in your conclusions with which to disagree. I really don't have the time or energy to address every one of them, but there is one in particular that I can't pass up. I think I would very much enjoy a shootout between your Fortes and a pair of Klipschorns loaded with even some moderately priced networks from my bench. You need to quit smoking that stuff -- your hearing isn't the only thing that's being affected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tk49 Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 I'm amazed at the lack of interest in a chance to hear an affordable up-grade from stock for free, I came late to the party and still ended up first on the list. I mean how many times have we said, "it would be nice to hear that in my system before I shell out the cash". At any rate I'm looking forward to hearing the difference between my Sonicapped AL3's and the Super AA2's. Hope to see/hear them by early next week. Will report back with impressions. t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 I think its great this is being offered, but for reasons I am not trying them out are that I don't have factory horns. If I did I would be more then willing to give them a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssh Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Ditto Duder1982's post, Dean. Many of us are already invested in xovers, but confirm the quality of your work. SSH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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