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Crossover Roadshow


Deang

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First time I ever saw a facebook page was your link. Usually I get a sign-up to facebook page when linking there. That and the fact that it is near 100degrees around places outside in the shade/pool instead of in here, with me and the AC.

A sackful of people do not want to give facebook all their vital stats. IMLO

Really? You get a sign up page? That's strange. I thought is was publically accessible without having to go through that.

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Yeah.........I have seen the new ALK universal on AL's site, and read that Dean builds it now. Thank God to whoever decided to use something other than Sonicaps.

Nothing wrong with Sonicaps for the appropriate application, but for ALK products I'll say "Good idea" to whomever decided to upgrade. I don't use passives much anymore but I spent thousands of dollars on ALK networks of all types over a period of years. Those designs responded "splendidly" to upgraded parts..........unlike the Klipsch networks I spent big money on trying upgraded parts. Sounded WORSE.

The point is that those are premium designs and the better parts are definitely worth the money in those designs. You'll hear the difference.

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Deang my comment in re-guard to Al , is in no way intended to be a slight, i try to be as

careful as i can to convey my thoughts , i believe Al designs and the results that were glean through

his efforts is well documented. I'm,not an Engineer though i imagine good ones not only deals with data

but also the resulting sound ,

the question was asked why no response ,its great to have testimonial, a good sales man needs an audience

knowing his product will exceed his competitors.. Knowing there is nothing inferior in your offering

let it be known. I'm sure PW Klipsch wasn't shy about the sound of his speakers,

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Hi Gary,

Well, you've probably already seen my last post and now know that what I offering to send around is in fact what you already own -- though built with some nicer stuff. :) You're certainly more than welcome to make some comments on what you think about them if you want!

Have you seen the new ALK? Has ANYONE see the new ALK?

Yeah, we crossed paths Deano. I'll have to say no to this. Still loving my Jrs and see no reason to change. Nice of you to offer though.

Anyone out there using As or AAs, even newly built versions.....you should really hear what you're missing. Once you make the switch, going back to stock networks is impossible.

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I never should have let Al talk me into the changing the name of this thing, it has caused nothing but confusion. The ALKJr and Super AA is same crossover. This crossover IS the ALKJr built with entry level capacitors to get the cost down. I decided to go back to the name originally given to it because I wanted to build two versions of it -- which is why this one is called the Super AA/2. There is a Super AA/1 which is more like what Gary is using -- same circuit -- built with upscale parts.

The stock crossovers sound really good built with the paper in oils.

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Okay everyone, level with me. Why isn't anyone interested in trying this? Where is the curiosity that really is the thing that drives our hobby? The goal is seeing if I can increase your pleasure in listening. Sure, I might make a little bit of money, but is that idea really so offensive, I mean, people recommend other equipment to each other here (which drives up sales for companies like Oppo, Emotiva, etc.). This is an opportunity to try something unique for very little money, and people around here used to jump on stuff like this. Did I offend, is it because I used entry level capacitors, or something else. It would great hearing the reasons, even if they involve a butt chewing.

It maybe a subject pretty hard to talk about with you as we likely have two different philosophies but since you asked I'll comment on a few things. Some of us are DIYers such as my self. So I'm perfectly capable of rolling my own. I've written a lot on networks trying to get some people to take an interest in networks mostly over on audiokarma. But really I'm more of an amplifier designer. I just wanted more from my speakers and was lucky to have some foresight into other peoples work and took some blind chances some ended up being revelatory and some not so. Some people have taken offers to hear my work and drove as much as a 1000mi to hear it. Its always nice to hear someone really being moved by ones work and seeing their whole perspective on audio change. A lot of times people will point their fingers at components and think its got to be this or that that is doing what they are hearing but really its the whole system as I like to say.

I got started on networks because of one of my friends who built a DIY version of ALK's Universal Networks. When I heard it, it made his LaScala's listenable for the first time for me! That influenced me to DIY an outboard network using what I felt was subjectively superior parts for my Forte's.

So I have had an influence on a few people through the yrs but its hard for people to hear the light sort of speak!

As I read of one major audio buff who has a site on high end sound said through the years he had only met a couple of people with the same tastes as himself so I have come to appreciate his comment and to accept there will be people with their own taste and their own direction even if it's a direction that doesn't make any sense but as I look at it people have a right to live and learn as I say just as I have learned. And whats of interest to them maybe less so for me and so on.

I think the best approach for demoing superior networks is going to be an actual side by side speaker demo's or speaker swap outs. And then the demo has to to be pretty traumatic to the people hearing it. As familiar as I am of my own network mods I once forgot just how much better they were till I did a swap of my friends demo stock Fortes I was using.

Such as my close friend No Regrats below who is a jazz musician, likes live music several times a week and has one heck of a sound system himself.

Comments like these don't get much better but it was a dramatic contrast that I have contrast before with literally having guests in blank stare's or totally speechless. Literally running outside to their vehicle to get more of their music.

Funny thing, While the Forte network as ALK likes to point out is not electrically correct it goes to show what subjectively superior components can do with basically the stock values. Other than the DCR's.I really don't care if they match because I don't find a serious significance in it after all the the crossover as ALK says is not electrically correct to begin with like the 100 ohm or so impedance of the mid, Of course this is a whole another story.

When he said below that the Forte created the biggest sound stage he had ever heard, I can tell you that stock network barely gets out side of the speakers boundaries. I had this setup on an 18ft wall 9ft apart yet one can perceive ambient room ques indicating the sheer room size of the recording acoustic with very defined lateral imaging has extended as much as 10ft to the left and right of each speaker.

Granted not everyone cares for big stages or what I call life size imaging but I do. Its funny to take a grill cover off and look at the tiny horns and ask yourself how the heck can they do this?

One thing is that I have learned is that not all associated equipment will allow this. It all has to have the same capability CDP's, amps, preamps and so on. Otherwise the modified Fortes will point any weakness out period.

This can result in preconceived notions of the subjective value of doing what I did to the networks. If the gear used is not capable of as much as the Forte.This has result in some pieces of gear barely getting past the speaker boundaries which is no fault of the speakers

All though I use some pretty high end caps I have found the Inductors
to be way more serious on the influence of sound. Iron Cores just
shrink the sound stage from my perspective and I find them very
inconsistent or not totally even in their coherency of their frequencies
that there being used in for my tastes and because of this I'll never
use them again. There is something very right about the North Creek
Inductors. And regardless of "Q" factors and such.

Try reading this account http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/messages/14/147282.html

Here's another guy that went with some of my minimums to get his Fortes moving out of the gate http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=516254

One of my guests that I had here that I designed a pair of extreme 45 amplifiers for was using some 2A3's before was using ALK ES networks for his LaScala's I told him that some engineers like Dr Bruce Edgar prefer simpler networks with high efficiency speakers. I have seen in print where ALK has pointed out that for low power he thought they sounded better as well. I know ALk likes SS high power. I can see the need for ES protecting the drivers. My friend wished he had been told of this. I suggested a DIY ALK Universal. It was built using the famed Sonicraft caps with a Dave Slagel Autotransformer along with North Creek Inductors and Duelund resistors with the resulting sound being much more pleased with.

One other area I had experience with was Litz Inductors and yes I know the "Q" factors can't compare. I tried a 14AWG Solen Litz with a Crites Titanium diaphragms and it was just awful very grating on the ears. When I went back to my 8AWG North Creeks it was like a match made in heaven. It had body authority with great ease. Even my local audio club president said it was the best horn high end that he had heard. So much for the #'s so I went with the subjective value.

BTW I use a minimalist system with no preamp just CDP direct and 10 watt SET amplifiers but not your typical SET amps by any means. My CDP is also heavily modified.

It goes to show a speaker or amplifier doesn't have to be big to get big. For me its all about the first watt.

In the end you can go by the #'s but in the end its subjectively why a lot of people buy.

I hope this gives you some insight or some idea's.

I just visted your website and found it well written and I see a little more varity in part choices which I think is good, It would be nice to see some inductor choices as well like Mundorf which has an option to vacuum varnish impreagnate their coils as my own North Creeks are. I have heard a speaker with Mundorf caps and coils that has been a show stopper for a few years now with excellent coherancy from top to bottom.

Perhaps were not so far apart as I thought.

Quote:





Originally Posted by No Regrets
View Post
Hello gentlemen,



I am not one who posts much on forums, but I cannot hold myself back any
longer. SET12 has been a great friend and audio buddy of mine for many
years now. I have seen his talents in regards to diy audio grow from
doing audio repairs, to modifying circuits, to doing some absolutely
outstanding scratch build projects. This guy is incredible with the
knowledge that he has accrued over the years and he has earned my total
and complete respect. It is both an honor and my pleasure to have him
as my friend.



So what has prompted me to write this post? Let me tell ya......I was
at SET12's house today and we had about a 3 hour listening session, like
we do from time to time. Now keep in mind, he has been doing a lot of
mod's to his speakers which has been well documented here over the past
30 some pages. I have heard these speakers of his ever since he has had
them and have heard them after each step of the modification process.
Each time I could hear improvements in what he was doing. A few weeks
ago, I was at his home listening to his system and I told him that I
cannot believe how far these speakers have come along since he has
started. These speakers are a different animal......in a completely
different league all together and I told him how proud of him I was in
what he has accomplished. But I still didn't come on the forum and
write about it.....I guess maybe because I just don't feel comfortable
writing in "reviewer speak" .



So why now? He did something today that not many people have the
opportunity to do. He gave me an A/B/A audition of his modified
speakers vs. a stock pair of Fortes. We all have made upgrades over
time with various aspects of our systems and much of the time we have to
rely on our memories of what something used to sound like. Well today,
we didn't need our memories and we had quite an experience to say the
least. We listened to his first. Beautiful sounding as always. Then
we quickly hooked up the stock Fortes. Now please try and understand my
intentions as I go on here. I am not trying to be rude, offensive, or
disrespectful in any way, shape, or form. I am trying to be
constructive with my comments but will be also direct and to the point.
When we switched over to the stock Fortes, I could not believe my ears.
The difference that I heard from going from the modded Fortes to the
stock Fortes was so great that I think I may have been in shock. It has
been so long since I have heard a stock pair of Fortes that I had
forgotten what they had sounded like. My memory of them were that they
were dynamic, fun to listen to, and overall a decent speaker. After
listening to the modded Fortes and then switching over to the
stock.....I literally could not listen through the entirety of a whole
song. They were lifeless, they sounded restrained and congested. They
sounded like what detail they had was being smeared. And what got me the
most was the tonality. The voice, the piano, the cymbals, etc.....none
of it sounded right. I literally asked SET12 to stop playing the song
because it was grating on my ears....the listener fatigue was so high,
and the sounds coming from the stock speakers were so displeasing that I
could not take it any more.



Now, I know that these words are probably not going to sit well with a
lot of you who own stock Fortes. But please understand me that when I
write these things....I am not trying to hurt anyone's feelings. What I
am trying to do is light a fire under you to either come and hear
SET12's speakers for yourself, or do these mod's and create a monster of
a speaker system.



With these modded Fortes...the voices, and timbre of instruments sound
correct. You do not hear the Klipsch's horns and their resonance
distorting the sound as it leaves the speaker. These modded Fortes
sound effortless across the entire frequency. Very balanced sounding. I
know there are people that think...."I'll upgrade from Fortes to
K-horns instead of keeping the Fortes and doing the mod's." Let me tell
you from personal experience. That will not be an upgrade and you will
have regrets if you do that. I have owned K-horns and I would take
SET12's modded Fortes as they are right now any day over the K-horns
that I once owned. These modded Fortes sound like each driver had their
own amplifier. There was no sign of congestion. They are smooooth!
They are full of detail throughout the entire frequency and the entire
soundstage (which is the biggest soundstage I have ever heard!) They are
full sounding and have dynamics that seem to belie the laws of physics.
When you look at these speakers, you certainly will not think that
they look very big......but these modded Fortes will beg to differ with
you and will win that argument all day long with the sound they throw at
you. They are huge sounding! These speakers are no longer Fortes, and
I dare say they are no longer Klipsch. I have to believe that they are
head and shoulders above and beyond anything Paul Klipsch had ever
heard come out of his workshop, and I believe with all my heart that if
he could hear SET12's modded Fortes....that he would be as proud of him
as I am.



These modifications that SET12 has done to these speakers are seriously
real upgrades. So many times people will make changes to their audio
system hoping for it to be an upgrade in sound and performance and all
they end up with is a change in their system.....not necessarily for the
better, just something different. I understand that there are
financial costs associated with these upgrades, but I will tell you flat
out that it will be worth every penny you put into it and many times
over. The only regrets that you will have is wondering why you waited
so long to do it. If you can't afford to do everything all at once,
please do yourself a favor and talk with SET12 and get his opinions on
which things to tackle first and which ones make the most sonic benefits
for the time and money that you will be willing to put into it. SET12
is a top notch guy and loves to talk about all things audio. He'll
steer you in the right direction.



And I should probably say that I have no financial interests or ties
whatsoever to the proprietors of these various mods. I just want to
convey to everyone what I have heard and witnessed so that it may be of
help to you.



Warmest regards,

No Regrets

Cheers

SET12

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I have read some of the threads on the forte' involving an outboard X-Over to make changes to components of it easier. The listening sessions by the club I found most interesting. The use of exotic,read expensive caps, inductors, peaked my interest greatly. Not having had any Klipsch speaker X-Over upgrades to our Chorus, or forte's, I am curious to find out for myself now as I will be sending my forte' crossovers to *DeanG(one day soon). Am expecting to hear what I feel will be a stock forte' as it sounded when new, or close to it. To experience anything more than that may or may not be the sound I am expecting. May have read in the music session with the forte' something about a larger or better quality inductor producing more accurate bass.

In any event, I was considering a DIY or a proffessional overhaul of the forte' crossover's. Having been in a related business for awhile, I understood, understand that the love of my craft caused me to bore some customers to tears about technicals that were neither here nor there in their minds. All they wanted was good, fast, and reasonably priced service.

*DeanG appears to have a keen interest in his craft and trade. Heck, he was going to tell me how to DIY a refresh to my crossovers. I think that very generous of him, especially as it would have a direct effect upon his pocketbook. Needless to say, after having been in business with some success, I have no compunction at all with a generous with information person. Saving the DIY for another day. Go *Dean

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I have read some of the threads on the forte' involving an outboard X-Over to make changes to components of it easier. The listening sessions by the club I found most interesting. The use of exotic,read expensive caps, inductors, peaked my interest greatly. Not having had any Klipsch speaker X-Over upgrades to our Chorus, or forte's, I am curious to find out for myself now as I will be sending my forte' crossovers to *DeanG(one day soon). Am expecting to hear what I feel will be a stock forte' as it sounded when new, or close to it. To experience anything more than that may or may not be the sound I am expecting. May have read in the music session with the forte' something about a larger or better quality inductor producing more accurate bass.

In any event, I was considering a DIY or a proffessional overhaul of the forte' crossover's. Having been in a related business for awhile, I understood, understand that the love of my craft caused me to bore some customers to tears about technicals that were neither here nor there in their minds. All they wanted was good, fast, and reasonably priced service.

Forte's are GREAT speakers at their core but there is hidden greatness within a stock pair!

You may hear them as they were new if this is your preferance, but unless you go far enough it isn't likely you'll hear them as above!

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I have read some of the threads on the forte' involving an outboard X-Over to make changes to components of it easier. The listening sessions by the club I found most interesting. The use of exotic,read expensive caps, inductors, peaked my interest greatly. Not having had any Klipsch speaker X-Over upgrades to our Chorus, or forte's, I am curious to find out for myself now as I will be sending my forte' crossovers to *DeanG(one day soon). Am expecting to hear what I feel will be a stock forte' as it sounded when new, or close to it. To experience anything more than that may or may not be the sound I am expecting. May have read in the music session with the forte' something about a larger or better quality inductor producing more accurate bass.

In any event, I was considering a DIY or a proffessional overhaul of the forte' crossover's. Having been in a related business for awhile, I understood, understand that the love of my craft caused me to bore some customers to tears about technicals that were neither here nor there in their minds. All they wanted was good, fast, and reasonably priced service.

Forte's are GREAT speakers at their core but there is hidden greatness within a stock pair!

You may hear them as they were new if this is your preferance, but unless you go far enough it isn't likely you'll hear them as above!

Fair enough! I have to start somewhere. Hearing a newer set of ForteII's recently has led me to believe, I at the very least need an refresh. I plan on expressing my before and after. Thinking that my forte' could be 85 vintage versus 90's II's that were packed away for the last 8 years approx. until I revived them for another forum member.

Thanks

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I have read some of the threads on the forte' involving an outboard X-Over to make changes to components of it easier. The listening sessions by the club I found most interesting. The use of exotic,read expensive caps, inductors, peaked my interest greatly. Not having had any Klipsch speaker X-Over upgrades to our Chorus, or forte's, I am curious to find out for myself now as I will be sending my forte' crossovers to *DeanG(one day soon). Am expecting to hear what I feel will be a stock forte' as it sounded when new, or close to it. To experience anything more than that may or may not be the sound I am expecting. May have read in the music session with the forte' something about a larger or better quality inductor producing more accurate bass.

In any event, I was considering a DIY or a proffessional overhaul of the forte' crossover's. Having been in a related business for awhile, I understood, understand that the love of my craft caused me to bore some customers to tears about technicals that were neither here nor there in their minds. All they wanted was good, fast, and reasonably priced service.

Forte's are GREAT speakers at their core but there is hidden greatness within a stock pair!

You may hear them as they were new if this is your preferance, but unless you go far enough it isn't likely you'll hear them as above!

Fair enough! I have to start somewhere. Hearing a newer set of ForteII's recently has led me to believe, I at the very least need an refresh. I plan on expressing my before and after. Thinking that my forte' could be 85 vintage versus 90's II's that were packed away for the last 8 years approx. until I revived them for another forum member.

Thanks

Thank You! For the acknowledgement! "Fair enough!" Your right you have to start some where! and I did just that, then I built upon it. I have been fortunate enough to hear and own some very good speakers through the years, I even got to hear Klipsch Flagship P39F's a couple of yrs ago and recently at the last Chicago Audio Show Volti Audio Speakers simler to Klipsch http://www.voltiaudio.com/ which I enjoyed. Both of these speakers are in the $20,000 category. The mods I did to the Forte allow it to compete with these speakers very easily at just a fraction of the investment. Pretty amazing when a pair of Fortes can sound as big as the Volti and even sound for the most part more extended in the low end then with Volti even with the hidden sub they were using and with a recording I have been listening to for over 20yrs.

Stay in touch!

SET12

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Thank You! For the acknowledgement! "Fair enough!" Your right you
have to start some where! and I did just that, then I built upon it. I
have been fortunate enough to hear and own some very good speakers
through the years, I even got to hear Klipsch Flagship P39F's a couple
of yrs ago and recently at the last Chicago Audio Show Volti Audio
Speakers simler to Klipsch http://www.voltiaudio.com/
which I enjoyed. Both of these speakers are in the $20,000 category.
The mods I did to the Forte allow it to compete with these speakers very
easily at just a fraction of the investment. Pretty amazing when a pair
of Fortes can sound as big as the Volti and even sound for the most
part more extended in the low end then with Volti even with the hidden
sub they were using and with a recording I have been listening to for
over 20yrs.

Stay in touch!

SET12

Interesting experiences and, fortunate indeed from my perspective. I feel I can see why the forte' can compete in the broader area of sound reproduction with the high end products mentioned. I will be continuing to follow the club's sessions.

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Wow, I just wanted some input as to why maybe more weren't taking advantage of the offer. Things like the fact that it's summer, etc. made good sense. You're right about the fact that we have different approaches, and yes, I find much in your conclusions with which to disagree. I really don't have the time or energy to address every one of them, but there is one in particular that I can't pass up. I think I would very much enjoy a shootout between your Fortes and a pair of Klipschorns loaded with even some moderately priced networks from my bench. You need to quit smoking that stuff -- your hearing isn't the only thing that's being affected.

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I'm amazed at the lack of interest in a chance to hear an affordable up-grade from stock for free, I came late to the party and still ended up first on the list. I mean how many times have we said, "it would be nice to hear that in my system before I shell out the cash".

At any rate I'm looking forward to hearing the difference between my Sonicapped AL3's and the Super AA2's. Hope to see/hear them by early next week. Will report back with impressions.

t

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