Thaddeus Smith Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I'll be done with them by tomorrow night. I probably won't ship until Monday though -- I don't want to risk having these things sitting in a UPS truck over the weekend. I'm trying to decide what to send around. Al builds the CornScala-Wall, and that might be a good one to send around -- I'm sure he'd do it if I asked. I personally tend to like the old first order designs with stuff like the paper in oils and Jupiters. I suppose I'm willing to do that, but I just don't have the loose change for that right now -- it would probably have to wait until Spring. I'm certainly not in any hurry. I'd just like to find out if any of the aftermarket crossovers will be noticeable to my ears in my application and if I can do that without spending $500-1000 up front.. awesome. Even Al's $300ish Cornscala-walls would suffice as a test. I'm really happy with these stock B-2 networks, so just curious what sort of improvement is even possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Melton Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I'll be done with them by tomorrow night. I probably won't ship until Monday though -- I don't want to risk having these things sitting in a UPS truck over the weekend. I'm trying to decide what to send around. Al builds the CornScala-Wall, and that might be a good one to send around -- I'm sure he'd do it if I asked. I personally tend to like the old first order designs with stuff like the paper in oils and Jupiters. I suppose I'm willing to do that, but I just don't have the loose change for that right now -- it would probably have to wait until Spring. I'm certainly not in any hurry. I'd just like to find out if any of the aftermarket crossovers will be noticeable to my ears in my application and if I can do that without spending $500-1000 up front.. awesome. Even Al's $300ish Cornscala-walls would suffice as a test. I'm really happy with these stock B-2 networks, so just curious what sort of improvement is even possible. I bought a set of Al's Cornscala-walls and they made a huge difference, I really love them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I'll be done with them by tomorrow night. I probably won't ship until Monday though -- I don't want to risk having these things sitting in a UPS truck over the weekend. I'm trying to decide what to send around. Al builds the CornScala-Wall, and that might be a good one to send around -- I'm sure he'd do it if I asked. I personally tend to like the old first order designs with stuff like the paper in oils and Jupiters. I suppose I'm willing to do that, but I just don't have the loose change for that right now -- it would probably have to wait until Spring. I'm certainly not in any hurry. I'd just like to find out if any of the aftermarket crossovers will be noticeable to my ears in my application and if I can do that without spending $500-1000 up front.. awesome. Even Al's $300ish Cornscala-walls would suffice as a test. I'm really happy with these stock B-2 networks, so just curious what sort of improvement is even possible. I bought a set of Al's Cornscala-walls and they made a huge difference, I really love them! Ditto for me. Love that xover! Shakey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) Been out to his site lately? We've been collaborating again. There is now an economy version of the Universal (400Hz). At first I wanted to build it, but then decided I really didn't want to be locked in my workroom all night when I get off work. I would rather build the high-end versions of some these products (and yes, there is a high-end version of the CornScala-wall). Right now, we're working on a new layout so I can include the transformer based attenuators on both networks. Michael R, I like the B2, that's what I'm building for Schu, though I'm adding a coil in series with the squawker. It'll add a little resistance to the midrange and steepen the slope a little more. A capacitor changeout is pretty noticeable. My preferred choices for the older filters are a little lossy compared to the polypropylenes most choose -- but the result is a sound that isn't as forward and sounds more balanced, is less brash, cleaner, and sounds more natural (relaxed). I'm still convinced the DA component is responsible for much of the latter. Even with the slight increase in loss, ESR is still considerably better than the Mylars, especially the ones that are beginning to fail. Most think the old Mylars live forever, but they're actually reaching the end of their useful life. People claim they are mostly okay with what they're hearing, but it's only because they have no basis for comparison, and their ears have simply become used to the degradation in sound. I understand that this is hard to accept, but it's true. I see in your sig that your Cornwalls are 83's, so we're talking 30+ years on capacitors that really weren't very good products to begin with. Good capacitors in an old circuit can sound better than lousy caps in a modern circuit. IOWs, I would take a set of PIO AAs over a pair of ALKs built with Mylars. Yes, my prices sometimes climb into the stratosphere because like me, many of my customers are more interested in the most subjectively pleasing listening experience possible as opposed to a sound that was determined to be "the best" because of an isolated set of measurements. None of this should be construed to mean I don't respect the measurements, because I do. However, there are obviously some things in play here that we don't have a full understanding of yet. I used to think I was in the minority with the DA thing, and I may be -- but at least I'm in good company. "Do we REALLY have to debate Dielectric Absorption again? I must admit that I missed its significance in the '70's. A friend of mine actually sent me his masters thesis on DA in 1974, and I completely missed its relevance to audio at the time. It was Richard Marsh who got the ball rolling on DA. Then Walt Jung's and Richard Marsh's paper 1980 paper in Audio got me to take it seriously. Then Walt and Scott Wurcer devised a test that made making RELATIVE measurements of DA both interesting and repeatable. The only problem with this test was that it was difficult to interpret WHAT DA actually did to the audio signal over time, but it was exciting to test virtually every type of capacitor and sort them out with this test. Scott, even did a SIMULATION of the cap test in SPICE, and it gave virtually the same results as the real thing. However, Richard did not like the test as much, and he did not want to do a paper with us on DA using this test. He wanted a more elaborate test to truly show what DA does, so Walt and I wrote a short paper on it. Of COURSE, there was controversy. And so it goes!" -- John Curl http://books.google.com/books?id=G3vkSkvTf-cC&pg=PA298&lpg=PA298&dq=richard+marsh+dielectric+absorption&source=bl&ots=S4NPWIlec5&sig=9rG55ZALUsW9LXczZDf59Bn-b3Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=37_NUrO1GoTJkAeKmoGgCQ&ved=0CGMQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=richard%20marsh%20dielectric%20absorption&f=false http://waltjung.org/PDFs/A_RealTime_Signal_Test_For_Capacitor_Quality.pdf http://www.parasound.com/pdfs/JCinterview.pdf https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/63877-dielectric-absorption-in-capacitors-could-it-be-the-answer/?hl=mylar#entry634997 Edited January 9, 2014 by DeanG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captmobley Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Is it too late to get on this roadshow? I would like to try these out on my Khorns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I've heard expensive standalone DAC's and they were good. I've heard the DAC's in my Oppo 93 and Denon 3808ci and they're also good. I currently use the DAC of my macbook pro and am enjoying the music no less, even though anyone and everyone will tell you that it's the worst possible DAC one could use in their Hifi. But with these varying reference points I know I can buy a device in the $300-400 range and be completely satisfied and settled. To be clear, I have no issues with your asking prices. The components and craftsmanship definitely seem appropriate for the cost. My B-2's sound great, even at 30yrs old, because I've never heard what a new set sounds like, what PIO's sound like, etc. I hope to be in the position to spend some cash on crossover upgrades in the next year or so, but I don't know that I'll ever be able to pre-pay for a test drive just to establish a new reference point. I know there will be improvement, but I have to decide if it justifies the cost.. any cost.. to make those upgrades. Or, are my slowly degrading crossovers simply good enough for now. I need to find that point of diminishing returns for my system and without any real reference point I can't accurately do so. Does that make sense? I think I've gotten off topic a bit. Everything I said above is exactly why I'd love to be a part of a cornwall roadshow, even if it's a total economy network but with refreshed components. That costs you money, however, so I'm happy to wait for "some day" when it becomes economically viable for you to do so. I'd be just as happy if a local DFW'er wanted to yank out their upgraded crossovers and bring them out to my place for an afternoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 When you get the Roadshow versions, send me your B2s. If you cover the shipping, I will upgrade them for free. Great post BTW. You didn't bust my chops and I totally understand where you're coming from. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 When you get the Roadshow versions, send me your B2s. If you cover the shipping, I will upgrade them for free. Great post BTW. You didn't bust my chops and I totally understand where you're coming from. Pretty hard to say no to that. You're not such a curmudgeon after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Could the first b be swapped out with your B2, I may be interested as well. I have all ways just put new caps in my Corns, and Heresy. Never gave any kind of upgrade to them . May be worth a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) Could the first b be swapped out with your B2,... May be worth a shot. they can Edited January 9, 2014 by Schu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budman Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) i'm gonna try and say this the best way i can to all the people who want to upgrade their stock crossovers. i've had Bob's rebuilds / Bob's brand new / Deans brand new and some from Al brand new stop worrying about if you can hear a difference between old and new. you will start enjoying your new crossovers knowing that you have the best crossovers money can buy and all the materials used are of the highest quality whether they are from Bob / Al / Dean or whoever buy the crossovers that fit your budget. and to finish it off, they look great to. thanks Bob / Al / Dean Edited January 9, 2014 by Budman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonicSeeker Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Or buy mine that are new from Dean for a good discount. I switched speakers and did not need them when they arrived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 19, 2014 Author Share Posted January 19, 2014 Okay, Michael, Al just finished a set and they are ready to go out. Anyone wanting to hear these, please contact Al directly via email to get put on the list. The following is very important: this particular roadshow crossover is for the Cornwall only, NOT the CornScala. I've talked Al into creating several different versions, optimized for the various configurations that are being used. Please visit Al's website for more information about this. These are basically economy or budget versions of the Universal utilizing different crossover points. The higher end versions are being built by me under license. Please don't make the mistake of thinking that $30 in Solen capacitors is the last word in performance. Good grief, I can't believe I actually felt the need to say that. The list for the Super AA tryout is slowly starting to grow again. Please contact me via email. DO NOT USE PMs -- I've decided I don't like the new system. EMAIL ONLY, For the Cornwall, Al's email is ak@alkeng.com For the Super AA, my email is dgwescott@gmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Thanks Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Indeed, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Note: Reviews and public feedback are in no way a requirement for participation in the roadshow. I feel, however, that it's only appropriate to give some sort of feedback as compensation for the time, effort, and expense put out by the network providers in this exercise. I don't typically write reviews, so there's going to be some slight incoherence of thoughts and will not be as thesaurus inspired as most audio reviews tend to be. This is my first experience with swapping out networks, so I'll rely on Dean or ALK to chime in if I incorrectly describe technical aspects. I've had the ALK Cornwall Universals (not Cornscala compatible) for just over a week. My speakers are '83 Cornwalls with stock components: K-77-M, K-51-V, K-33E, and B-2 networks. Listening was at 85dB or less in near field. Amp is currently a 15w tripath amp. I'm finding that this system is pretty uncolored, almost too analytical at times, and there is very little enjoyment for "garbage in" components or music. Such things become immediately noticeable and amplified. If my understanding is correct, these ALK networks are about as bare bones and cost-conscious as you can get for a network upgrade/re-design and it just goes to show how degraded my original networks were since these sounded dramatically better. I believe some of that is due to a flatter response from the networks, but there was also an emergence of higher frequencies that I knew existed on certain albums which seemed lacking on the original B-2's. The crossovers have attenuable jumpers for the squawker and tweeter which come set by ALK. He freely admits that those selections were merely a best guess and since I had no prior experience I left them as-is. I'd recommend to the next guy that you knock these down by 1dB or so before installing. The tweeter is definitely hot and possibly the squawker. I'm simply too lazy to undo/redo 12 screws per speaker to fiddle with minor jumper changes when they will be leaving my house shortly. If I were keeping these long term, I absolutely would take the time and effort to get things "just right" and there appears to be plenty of incremental adjustment options with which to do that. Even so, the sound was superb and it simply meant I didn't crank the speakers as loud (so around 75dB) in order to get loud bass out of the woofers. At low levels, there was still plenty of bass and good articulation across the frequency spectrum. I've yet to find myself thinking "hmm, that track missed something I'm used to hearing". Great clarity between instruments, vocals, etc. The sound stage is great. blah blah blah. I'm not sure what else to write, so feel free to ask questions about something I've overlooked that you feel is important. I'm planning to pack these up and ship out on Friday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennie Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) Thanks for the review Michael. What would you say was the biggest difference between the new ALK's and your old crossovers, listening wise? Dennie Edited February 3, 2014 by Dennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Without comparison, the originals sounded great. After swapping in the ALK's, the originals were "muddy" and sloppy and definitely missing higher frequency content (though I lack the measurement tools to accurately tell you where they rolled off). For instance, in Tubular Bells, the originals almost seemed to clip or cut off when the bells are introduced towards the end. They didn't ring like I had heard them in the past. The ALK's brought that sound back to where it should be with a full bell sound and resonance. The proverbial "took a blanket off my speakers" statement is about the best way to describe the difference. My B-2's are being brought back up to spec and battery biased, so I'll be interested to hear how I perceive their sound after this experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Okay everyone, level with me. Why isn't anyone interested in trying this? Where is the curiosity that really is the thing that drives our hobby? The goal is seeing if I can increase your pleasure in listening. Sure, I might make a little bit of money, but is that idea really so offensive, I mean, people recommend other equipment to each other here (which drives up sales for companies like Oppo, Emotiva, etc.). This is an opportunity to try something unique for very little money, and people around here used to jump on stuff like this. Did I offend, is it because I used entry level capacitors, or something else. It would great hearing the reasons, even if they involve a butt chewing. Hi Dean I think the offer is outstanding...but I also think the forum structure is very complex and as a result..a lot of folks are not aware of it....gone are the days that you knew whats was happening by just monitoring threads that have been answered vs threads that have not. So this is in the two channel section..might also need to be in the updates and modifications section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennie Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Without comparison, the originals sounded great. After swapping in the ALK's, the originals were "muddy" and sloppy and definitely missing higher frequency content (though I lack the measurement tools to accurately tell you where they rolled off). For instance, in Tubular Bells, the originals almost seemed to clip or cut off when the bells are introduced towards the end. They didn't ring like I had heard them in the past. The ALK's brought that sound back to where it should be with a full bell sound and resonance. The proverbial "took a blanket off my speakers" statement is about the best way to describe the difference. My B-2's are being brought back up to spec and battery biased, so I'll be interested to hear how I perceive their sound after this experience. Thanks Michael, I'll be curious to hear how you like your B-2's, when you get them back. Dennie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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