Deang Posted September 19, 2013 Author Share Posted September 19, 2013 The Super AA is a diplexer, so it has a low pass, bandpass, and high pass. However, there is no bandpass section on the great majority of Klipsch networks, which is why I just refer to everything on the other side of the primary capacitor as the high pass section. The "focal point" of your response was that people drop the midrange to make the tweeter stand out more. Okay then we'll go with that. How do they accomplish that without moving the crossover point? They can't, unless they modify the crossover. You can accomplish that with the Super AA by just moving two wires. I'm tired of talking about this I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I'd of been tired of talking about it 10 pages ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube fanatic Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 The electronics boys were racing like mad to come up with a good 50W amplifier. It finally happened in the mid to late 50s with the McIntosh amplifier, the Ultraliner amplifier and other using modern beam power tubes. Mark is absolutely correct here. In the late 50s my old friend Aaron Newman designed the famous Lafayette LA-550 to answer this exact need. Audiophiles wanted a higher power amp which was essentially flat across the audio band at full power, with low distortion, and this sure did the trick. I suspect that all of the designers of that era ultimately collaborated in one way or another and recall that Aaron knew Hafler and Keroes quite well, among others. Maynard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Dean's original idea of the "roadshow" was an interesting one. It allowed people to listen and decide before buying - a great idea. Why not get this thread back on track (addressed to no one in particular). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 20, 2013 Author Share Posted September 20, 2013 Yes, but I'm okay with those old networks, they sound nice to me. I just think they sound better with the paper in oils. The sound goes from overly forward and thin to a nicely balanced big fat soundstage. Al and Bob both think I'm nuts and that I'm hearing things. Guess what, I DON'T CARE. Of course this is my opinion, so what? Listen, people UPGRADE to my builds, they don't buy them and then sell them to buy something else, and it's rare to find my stuff on the secondary market. I adopt any approach that's technically sound and results is subjectively superior sound. I appreciate all of the deep technical bantering by those who can bury me in the math, but in the end, no plot or formula is going to take the place of a good listening session. Audiophiles don't "hear things that aren't there" and they don't have "golden ears" -- they just know what to listen for. I'm still working on my FAQ section, but I've finished the part on how Al and me can work together without killing each other -- we have very different views on some things. Al would prefer I quit building the old networks, but I believe they fill a void. What I have a problem with is when people speak authoritatively on a topic they have no direct experience with, or exaggerate a divergent technical solution into a technical deficiency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 What I have a problem with is when people speak authoritatively on a topic they have no direct experience with, or exaggerate a divergent technical solution into a technical deficiency. Dean would you please clarify and be specific about who and what exactly you are talking about in this statement. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 The Super AA is a diplexer, so it has a low pass, bandpass, and high pass. However, there is no bandpass section on the great majority of Klipsch networks, which is why I just refer to everything on the other side of the primary capacitor as the high pass section. The "focal point" of your response was that people drop the midrange to make the tweeter stand out more. Okay then we'll go with that. How do they accomplish that without moving the crossover point? They can't, unless they modify the crossover. You can accomplish that with the Super AA by just moving two wires. I'm tired of talking about this I think. Ok, so there's the challenge layed down yet again, and for the critics, this is the moment where you express your technical rebuttal to what Dean has said here. Yellow buttons and "we did it this way in 1950" won't cut it, but rather some specific engineering argument that rebuts what Dean is saying. I think it is a good and valuable discussion. And yes also, as Tom suggested, people want to get to the Roadshow aspect too. But we all know that arguments arise and have to be dealt with too. Dissenters, this is where you chime in. Mark who are the critics and dissenters you are calling out to? Has anyone disputed the fact that the swamping resistor allows level changes of the midrange in this thread? And Mark will you please quit calling people names like dissenters, pinheads and PWK wannabe......it doesn't help any of the discussions....! miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 20, 2013 Author Share Posted September 20, 2013 lol, no, but you can call me for a long over due NICE talk. I would like that if you're up for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik2A3 Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Ok, I'll respond. Dean, we had discussed moving autoformer positions up or down years ago. That the crossover point will shift is obvious -- though I remember seeing some response plots Bob posted that showed the attenuation of the squawker, but the crossover point had not changed significantly, even when using the same input capacitor. However, I wanted to share with you that you can simplify the necessary connections beyond changing two wires. BTW, I'm very clear on what is going on with this, the amount of capacitance associated with the lower autoformer position, and why it's a good practice to change cap values in order to maintain the same crossover frequency. It is simply NOT complicated. I would like to share with you and anyone else who might want to do this: you make the necessary connections for both position four on the autoformer AND position three where each is connected by a toggle switch. Choose what is needed based on listening preference, and the other is effectively out of the circuit. I did this very thing many years ago. Prefer constant impedance? use a variable L-pad and adjust the volume of the midrange and/or tweeter to whatever you want, making necessary capacitor changes to suit the impedances and desired crossover frequencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I try to adhere to a simple concept for posting: Treat others as they treat you. Hammurabi would be proud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 Mark, Well the huge problem as I see it is...how the hell do you know Rigma's comment about needing his BS button was even pointed at your posts? Mark the world does not revolve around you and YOU are not the lord of the Klipsch world. Get off your imaginary thrown! This is not the hidden political BS section of the forum. Your posting style really stinks since you have wasted years in that mess. You used to be one heck of a guy I really wonder what happened to trigger such anger......old age? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik2A3 Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 Muel: LOL! I enjoyed that! (edit) and Mark, please know that I found Muel's response funny only because of the ancient Law Code's legal tone finding such a similar sounding parallel in our own time. The context was very funny to me; I have taught about it in art history almost yearly for over twenty years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rigma Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 It was not directed to Mark or anyone in particular. Not sure why he assumed that. rigma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 21, 2013 Author Share Posted September 21, 2013 I guess sometimes BS is just the stuff you have to wade through, but you probably shouldn't use the button for that. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rigma Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 My post came after an hour of reading the full thread. Your post just happened to be the last one. You know what thy say about assume! rigma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 21, 2013 Author Share Posted September 21, 2013 Erik, okay man, I've got the soldering iron all warmed up and ready to go, but I need some help. I desoldered the wire from tap 4, moved it to tap 3, and changed the 13uF to a 6.8uF to keep the crossover point from moving too much. Well, tap 4 is too hot and tap 3 is too recessed. I ditched the T2A's and replaced them with some 3619-ET units. Figuring out the attenuation level is cake, but I don't know what cap values to use for -4dB or -5dB. Do you know what they are? Well, you might, but I doubt most here do, and while desoldering and soldering isn't exactly an impossible task, it's not something everyone can do, nor is it the most practical way to move between different levels of attenuation. So, how is this method of yours as easy or easier than simply moving two wires outfitted with female disconnects? And since your method is so easy and you've offered to help everyone do this, you should be able to give everyone those required capacitor values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 21, 2013 Author Share Posted September 21, 2013 "Anyway, it looks like Dean is declaring his stuff is for audiophiles (proudly) and the other traditional stuff is "ok" but not his style. Since we know of the general disdain here for "audiophools" the divide is more clear. " Hi Mark, did you see my earlier post about "the traditional stuff"? I LIKE the traditional stuff, just prefer the sound with the paper in oils. I'm currently on the hunt for high quality polyesters - I'm not even sure if such an animal exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 21, 2013 Author Share Posted September 21, 2013 While I understand the fixation on that damnable resistor and the idea that most plain aren't competent enough to figure out what the correct attenuation is (PWK's assertion regarding adjustable L-pads) - I would prefer that the conversation be centered around the sound -- which was the actual purpose for the thread. The network was designed to be used with the stock components and there are really only three recommended settings. The network accommodates horn changes easily enough, but I don't recommend its use with drivers utilizing metal diaphragms because of its first order midrange filter section, it just unloads too much energy near the horn's cut off. Same for the ALK, though it does better at louder volumes with the stock components (2nd order bandpass). Exceptions would be the BMS and the Community M200A -- but good judgement with the VC should be used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 Amtrans makes a high quality polyester film capacitor. Dunno if they have larger values... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 21, 2013 Author Share Posted September 21, 2013 Awesome Mike, could you PM me a link if you have it handy. I don't need the larger values. These would be used to replace the caps on all the other Klipsch loudspeakers. I'm not done playing with bypassing either. Feedback from those who tried the Roadshow version, which used Dayton film and foils as bypass capacitors has me seriously wondering if there might not be something to it after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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