HDBRbuilder Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 I kinda like my "Doppler" heritage speakers...and I very well imagine that those "Doppler" Klipsch speakers have already been sold longer than he has been alive...and will continue to be sold after he has departed this earth, too!! Maybe if they jacked up the price of k-horns to 25,000 bucks a pair he might listen to them!! Maybe a high-dollar power cord does make some major difference...but, to my way of thinking, since the power is CONVERTED to friggen 12 volts DC by a transformer BEFORE it is used by the equipment...maybe a high-dollar A/C-D/C TRANSFORMER might make MORE OF A DIFFERENCE? But, then again, I am just an old speaker builder, cabinet-maker, fine woodworker, and carpenter with NO awards for my work as a recording "engineer"...so WTF do I know? ------------------ I can now receive private messages This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 07-01-2002 at 07:01 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 Let her decorate the basement on the condition that you can decorate teh upstairs. bring in some RF-7's and a SVS sub... maybe that will stop her I am very interested to learn the dirty details about the way it improves teh dvd and cd playback. i understand the theory, i understand how it works to reduce/eliminate vibrations, but how does it improve the sound from a laser read disk? a record/lp/albumn i could understand, but this... not so sure. not doubting it, just want to learn. I always want to learn! quote: I'll let Justin answer the tough questions! tough questions don't phase me (muuhaha j/k) ------------------ -justin SoundWise Support A technical help site created by me and my fellow Klipschers I am an amateur, if it is professional; ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665 or for an RA# 800-554-7724 ext 5 Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 quote: Originally posted by HDBRbuilder: I kinda like my "Doppler" heritage speakers...and I very well imagine that those "Doppler" Klipsch speakers have already been sold longer than he has been alive...and will continue to be sold after he has departed this earth, too!! Maybe if they jacked up the price of k-horns to 25,000 bucks a pair he might listen to them!! I still don't know how in the world you get a doppler effect from horn speakers! unless they are running past you haha. i know the doppler effect/distortion, but i don't know how a horn could cause it, a bad speaker match yes (large woofer doing lows and highs). Case in point, BOSE, 6 inch woofer doing the midrange and the 'bass' with a 1.5-2 inch 'woofer' doing the 'highs' and high mids... now that i could understand a doppler effect, in the theory that you are tyring to get a speaker moving at say 100hz and 5000hz all at once, which we all know just does not sond good... once again, BOSE, case. in. point. ------------------ -justin SoundWise Support A technical help site created by me and my fellow Klipschers I am an amateur, if it is professional; ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665 or for an RA# 800-554-7724 ext 5 Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted July 1, 2002 Author Share Posted July 1, 2002 No, the Klipschorn would need to be downgraded to a 6.5" woofer, made out of solid Italian walnut, and be <80 dB. sensitivity, then he would listen. I have had records skip under tremendous bass, but I think I will make my own roller thingies. Anyway, foan or soft rubber, in pure science, should do a better job, as metal-metal transfers energy. Even placing my TT on a towel got rid of the skip, it didn't take much. Now, they are on chunks of DENSE (not matress stuff) foam, that dies the trick. ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 i once designed a system for this in cars out of K-Nex... wonder if I could implement it ------------------ -justin SoundWise Support A technical help site created by me and my fellow Klipschers I am an amateur, if it is professional; ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665 or for an RA# 800-554-7724 ext 5 Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 found this kinda funny ------------------ -justin SoundWise Support A technical help site created by me and my fellow Klipschers I am an amateur, if it is professional; ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665 or for an RA# 800-554-7724 ext 5 Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 I don't really have an answer for you Justin. All I can say is that they made a big difference in my system. I have several Vibrapods that go unused. It is hard to get used to pushing on the "Load" or "Play" button on my CD player and have the whole thing jiggle like a bowl of Jello...but the improvement in the sound is not subtle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowooo Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 Edster......how do the vibrapods compare to the rollers? ------------------ 2 Channel System: Klipsch Epic CF-2s McIntosh C-15 Preamplifier Adcom GFA 5500 Amplifier Music Hall MMF-5 Table Adcom GCD 700 CD Adcom ACE-515 AC Enhancer Transparent Audio Cabless> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 Rollers: 1 Vibrapods: 0 Part of the problem is the vibrapods aren't tall enought to lift my CD player off of the shelf, the rubber feet on the bottom of the vintage Mac CD player are too thick. The roller blocks are taller/thicker and allow it to float. I have tried the vibrapods on some of my other components and haven't really noticed a difference. My AE-3 Superpreamp already have upgraded large "squishy" feet under it as as part of the DJH package. I have tried the vibrapods under the Moondogs but I can't really discern a difference, but then again I have the Moondogs on vibration damping platforms (without which I can't hear a difference). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 Sorry for this post... I am not really superstitious but I can't leave that 666th post up there overnight. G'night all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 Rollerballs aside, I thought maybe it was a good time share my dirty secret with you all. About 6 months ago I was getting ready to drop some big dollars on Cardis interconnects. My eyes then fell on Audioquest, and some of the things they were saying at there website prompted me to give myself a crash course on how electricity works. I work two 12 hour shifts on the weekends, and ended up giving myself 48 hours of online instruction on electricity and how it works. I also spoke with several electrical engineers at work about some of the things I was learning. I am by no means an expert, but even a rudimentary understanding of how electricity works should lead one to see how ridiculously impossible it is for a power cord, speaker cable, or interconnect, to make any difference as far as any component is concerned. If one is convinced that the reasoning behind the benefits of high-end cables sounds feasable, then I would respond by saying that any benefit supposedly gained, is lost at the binding posts, clip wire, tin soldered connections at the drivers, crossover(s), and the internal wiring at the RCA or balanced inputs/outputs of any component. However, there can be no benefit. It's complete nonsense. Personally, I don't care how long this guy has been working in a studio making recordings. A recording engineer is NOT an electrical engineer. Of course, it all comes down to what we hear, and I certainly believe that people hear differences. I will say that the differences are real, however, they are not related to anything that has to do with electricity. Like I say in the referenced thread -- belief is a powerful mechanism. However, I no longer believe that a person hears a difference merely because they convinced themselves there is a difference -- because they dropped big money on a cable(s). Rather, I believe most audiophiles are conditioned to believe that if they make ANY change to their system -- there will be a difference -- and so there is! However, I also know from experience that a cable tweak can seem dramatic -- but when I remove the said cable, the degradation is nonexistent. Doesn't this beg the question? Ed, I would just ask you: Did your wife just sit down in front of your system and exlaim -- "Oh my gosh Ed, what did you do! The bass is so much better, the treble goes on forever, and the soudstage is so much more expansive!" "Check it out honey, it's these little balls! No, not those! These!!" I think voltage changes in the AC line, and barometric pressure, are greater factors in day to day changes in the sound of our systems than anything else. As far as doppler effect goes -- all speakers do this, but horns certainly to a greater degree. The effect is caused by the listener's head rotating 360 degrees while seated at the listening position. It's also caused by having a listening chair which rests on casters -- being blown across the room by any amp playing in excess of 5 watts. The wavering tones you hear while your head is rotating is "doppler effect".f>s> ------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Metal drivers make metal music shinef>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 07-02-2002 at 09:27 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike82 Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 Deang: I don't put much faith in what "electrical engineers" have to say when it comes to audio. Their thinking seems to be limited to what the current technology allows them to "measure", ie, if it can't be measured, it doesn't exist. To use a weak analogy, when the scientist, Lister (I think), was promoting the theory about bacteria causing infection and disease, the mainstream medical community laughed at him. Of course, when the microscope was invented, the mainsteam thinking changed. Well, this may be the case here. John Marks did make a passing statement about the CPCC top Gun using varous layers of shielding to drain RFI to ground. I know Dave Blair of Luxor/CPCC very well and even he won't even tell me about all the ways his cords work. A few years ago, I was working with a speaker company at CES. After three days of setting up and tweaking the room to get the best sound we could, an "electical engineer" came in and told me the best way to demonstrate the speakers was to have them pointing dead-on axis at the listener. He went on to blather about anaechoic testing, blah, blah, but he was full of crap! My ears, and the designers ears told us otherwise. Unfortunately, psychoacoustics is a newer field and the "electrical engineers" sure as **** don't have the technology to measure psychoacoustic phenomena. If you ever get out to Atlanta, you;re welcome to come by my home and hear for yourself what power cords can do. ------------------ Transport: CEC TL-2X DAC: Audiomat Maestro Pre-amp: Wyetech Jade Amps: Wyetech Onyx monoblock Interconects: Analysis Plus Solo Monocrystal Speaker cable: Analysis Plus Solo Monocrystal Power cords: CPCC Top Gun and Model 11 Line conditioner: CPCC Super Power Block Equip Stand: Grand Prix Audio Monaco Currently hunting Klipsch (Khorn, Belle, Lascala) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 Electrical rule number 1. The more splices you have in an electrical conductor, the more resistance you have between points A and B. Each connection can be considered a splice. A wire with its bare strands connected to a speaker terminal and an amplifier terminal will have less resistance than the same wire with connectors at each end(two more splices added) whether these connectors be solid gold or potato peels!! You can't make up for the extra resistance involved by making the electricity continue onward through a better conductor because the splice itself establishes the added resistance...pretty simple basic electricity!! Another thing, as I mentioned earlier: Just how much difference can a power cable make when the electricity that operates one's stereo equipment is NOT 120 volts A/C, but is 12 volts DC? In other words, the actual power operating the equipment is CONVERTED...so, to my way of thinking, the money on power cables would be better spent replacing the A/C to D/C transformer section in each piece of equipment with one that provides a more consistent 12 volt DC load, no matter how much fluctuation the A/C line feeding it may have!! And that won't take 1100 bucks to do, either!! But, then again, I am just a simple woodworker, so WTF do I know? ------------------ I can now receive private messages This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 07-01-2002 at 09:50 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 I have an answer. The Rollerblocks are Bullshit! (excuse my expletive) It cannot be both a coupler and a decoupler. It does NOT use earthquake foundation technology. Earthquake foundations use springs and/or viscoelastic isolation to limit the energy transmitted from the ground the the structure. Powercords with RF filtering in an environment rich in RF AND connected to a REALLY poor quality power supply would provide a definite benefit. Otherwise, the benefits are entirely psychological. Think about it. How could a teflon water hose provide better water than a viton water hose? That's all a powercord is, a water hose. Once the voltage is changed by the transformer, rectified and filtered by the capacitor bank, there is nothing left of the original AC wave. I assume that the power supply is well made and not one in a Pioneer component. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 Maybe a traditional Japanese carpenter should come up with a "Pagoda"-style isolation system for equipment, since NOBODY knows better how to isolate earthquake effects than a traditional Japanese carpenter!! Those guys know how to have a building sway with the quakes and after-shocks with only the paper in the panels needing replacement afterward. But...afterall...they have only been using their exquisite joinery techniques in construction for a couple thousand years...techniques that have proven themselves time and again throughout all of that time and even more!! ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 John Albright---Please don't confuse us with facts. It seems the horn world, once an island of common sense and practical engineering in an increasingly wacko hi-fi scene, is slowly being infected with high-enditis. I sense that lots of people who buy into some of this stuff are not mechanical guys, if they were they'd sense the nonsense right away. Anyone who uses a 12lb beater on steel plate gets an intrinsic feel for vibration and damping and nobody who worked in a machine shop would pay hundreds of bucks for little steel balls or cones regardless of their benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 Here's what I did: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/tweaks/ and yes, they do jiggle when you move them, but the improvement was well worth a few bucks! ------------------ Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 Justin asked: I am very interested to learn the dirty details about the way it improves teh dvd and cd playback. i understand the theory, i understand how it works to reduce/eliminate vibrations, but how does it improve the sound from a laser read disk? a record/lp/albumn i could understand, but this... not so sure. not doubting it, just want to learn. I always want to learn! I'll take a crack at this. I could only guess that if the vibrations are limited in the CD/DVD player, it'll allow the laser to track better, thus not as likely to "miss bits" during playback (realize just how small those pits are on the CD, epsecailly on DVDs - does not take much of a vibration to cause the laser to miss one). If a bit is missed, an error correction algoritm has to try to "guess" at the missing bit and fill it in and in some cases, just let it go. In severe cases, the vibrations can cause the laser to lose its place and the device has to "resync" itself, thus the skipping. This is one reason why CD-ROM drives where more expensive than regular CD players in the early days of CD-ROM drives (I tried to develop a device that would let me use my CD player as a CD-ROM device back when CD-ROM devices where still mucho-$$$), the error correction had to be that much better, whereas, for audio, a skipped bit probably would go unnoticed by the listener. More expensive CD players most likely had better electronics to minimize this problem. Now, play it through some high-end speakers and amplifiers and the listener just may noticed the skipped bits. Enter the roller-blocks allowing the CD player to be isolated and dampened from vibrations, allowing the laser to track better and not as likely to miss any bits in the play back material, thus giving the DAC a more complete bitstream, ultimatly allowing a better quality sound to be produced. As for expensive cables, obviously the jury is still out. I am using decent quality Monster cable myself (some of those speaker cables I have in my system cost me a good $80/pair), but I don't know if anything more than that would make a difference in my particular setup. I figured I'd spend the money and get good cable, but I did not want to break the bank on it. The cables did make a difference in my opinion over the cheapy stock 90 cent cables that came with some of my components. One of the downsides of the Denon AVR3802 is that the power cord is hardwired to the unit. Not the detachable kind, thus even if I do want to get a better power cord, I cannot do it unless I upgrade my whole reciever (which some day, I will and get seperates, but not for a few years - I need to build a garage and pave my driveway before I do anymore audio upgrades ). ------------------ Steven Konopa Fredericksburg, VA Denon AVR3802 (Receiver) RF-7 (Fronts) RC-7 (Center) RC-7 (Rear) RS-7 (A Surrounds) Infinity RS2000.5 (B Surrounds - recycled) REL Storm III (Subwoofer 1) Yamaha YST-SW40 (Subwoofer 2 - Recycled) JVC XV-S65GD (DVD) Sharp DX-200 (CD - ancient) RCA DWD490RE (DirecTV/Ultimate TV receiver) Sharp 32 inch (TV) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted July 1, 2002 Author Share Posted July 1, 2002 deang, you da man!!! I am glad we are not playing the lemming game today, speak for yourself (which you did) whether you agree with me or not. I would LOVE to talk to some real men (or women) who make a business out of recording, what do THEY USE AND BUY? Again, $1150 is BS for a POWER CABLE, it is just their to make you feel better. There is NO POINT in having a $1150 cable plugged into 5 cent/foot romex in your wall, which goes through DOZENS or HUNDREDS of different circuits and transformers. Is there? I hate to say this, but I will (and I don't say it in a mean manner). If you think a $1150 power cable will improve your system (let's say, over a $10 cable that functions properly, in a $100,000 preamp and $250,000 amp), you are full of $hit or lying to yourself. I stand by that. I would rather take that $1150 and buy/save for a new component, or get a new exhaust for my car. Also, all the little tweakes, like vibroposd for $400, are WAY overpriced. There is NO difference between titaniun, magnesiun, aluminum, gold, silver, or STEEL for the application. Last, I stand by what I see and hear, not what a 20-year audiophile tells me. I know for a fact that a pair of 801's sound better than a pair of 603's (London audio store) and I know a Krell amp/preamp sounds better than a $200 denon receiver when hooked up to them. What I do know is the guy at the audio store had the speakers hooked up with cable he threw in free when he sold the system, just some 12 gague Monster Cable with Banana plugs. Nothing more, nothing less. He was also doing well enough to serve beverages while I was their. ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted July 2, 2002 Share Posted July 2, 2002 ok, i can see the rollerblock theory there. (they do make CD player/rom's... SONY made the first one that i am aware of, i have it still. use it as a walk man, then plug it to the parallel port of your computer back win win95 was out! however, i somehow doubt, not against you, but the theory these ppl have, that you would loose enough bit-age (nice word eh?) to cause a severe quality loss. i CAN hear a difference in low quality dac and high quality ones. but, i somehow doubt that a company selling a say $1000 cd player would let it have vibrations that would cause it to lose quality, especially since they have cushion drives now-a-days. quote: Originally posted by kenratboy: I would LOVE to talk to some real men (or women) who make a business out of recording, what do THEY USE AND BUY? My dad has his own recording studio. youve all seen part of the studio, the video and photography production, and peices of the audio. Sennheiser mics and audiotechnica and a few sony headphones are all sennheiser speakers, never has chosen just one... tampta, roland, RB-3's, yamaha, RAMSA, infinity, B/W, paradigm studio stuff, oh, what are the others the list goes on... none of these roller blocks. power cables... monster cable speaker cable... monster cable equiptment? technic sony denon and then some pro brands i can not think of and just for kicks... these pics are actually kinda old now... the three avids you see in this... well only two i think, were all just recently replaced with new ones, and all new sound boards, and a new TASCAM, and one soundboard that you connect between the mic and the recorder... now i just need to take pics of the sound studio itself, this is mostly for the video and then audio, the audio section is quite different, soundboard and peice wise, but that gives an idea. well over $350,000 of equipment in that room, from Avids to the pro moniters to the speakers to the components to, all the things i did not show due to picture limits. basically what i am saying here is that the purchases were not cheap, things were thought of and put it or left aside as need be, and somethings were not needed, powercables that cost $1500 and roller blocks. Just for the record. My dad, and no one he knows in the business, spend money on roller blocks and no one spends more than $150 on power cables. this is from houston and virginia, groups he knows both places, along with himself. so, even ppl in the studio business don't know of anyone putting the money down for $1500 power cables and $300-700 roller blocks. now, my dad does not do this for a living, it is a side thing, so we don't have EVERYTHING, but the neccessities are there. get my drift? (note the actual audio production part is not in here, when i took the pics it was being rennovated, these are of the video side but has a lot of audio in it, as you know) ------------------ -justin SoundWise Support A technical help site created by me and my fellow Klipschers I am an amateur, if it is professional; ProMedia help you want <A HREF="mailto:promediatech@Klipsch.com">email Amy</A> or call her @ 1-888-554-5665 or for an RA# 800-554-7724 ext 5 Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150s> This message has been edited by justin_tx_16 on 07-02-2002 at 12:49 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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