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Greg congrats on the good write up, I enjoy reading your newsletters when they come. Please try to make a effort to leave your Klipsch upgrade site up so folks like me have something to go back to and get ideas and learn a little. Thanks for all your time here and everywhere.

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http://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/100440-2-223hz-tractrix-horns/

As far as it pertains to this forum, I'm pretty sure Jordan out in California might have been the first to make a 2" Tractrix horn, but I can't find the thread. Dana Moore was the first to use the big BMS driver, and he eventually left and also started his own company. His work can be seen at http://www.soniphase.com Some of the bass horns being built by some here were designed by Dana. He has several patents, though I believe there is some dispute as to what actually came out of his own mind. This is a common problem when it comes to creativity, whether it be a song or a bass horn. Greg is right in this respect - just because it looks like a Klipsch bass horn doesn't mean it's a Klipsch bass horn. At any rate, Dana should receive credit for finding and successfully using the BMS. Greg called me several years later to get my take on suitable 2" replacements for the Klipschorn and I told him I only knew of two that would go down low enough and only one that could go both low enough and high enough.

John Warren had been playing with the JBL 2404 and after a barrage of testing wrote an article which was featured in Audio Express magazine. The article was very well written and received, and included a nice optimized modification to the Type AA Network to correctly accommodate the tweeter's use. The JBL 2404 was expensive, and John took pity on us and found the Beyma CP-25. Al ran tests and shortly thereafter many began using it - it's still my favorite tweeter, and I believe this is what Greg is using. John Warren designed the network used in the review samples, it looks like a lot of work was put into both the design and build -- yet there is no mention of John in the review. John might not care -- but check this out: http://www.northreadingeng.com/Networks.html I'm not into all of the cheap resistors, but I can certainly appreciate the amount of work that must have gone into this.

The thread at the top was started by our own Dave Harris of Fastlane Audio. JC figures prominently in the thread and for good reason. JC is a surgeon (M.D.), who can carve out just about anything in the time it takes me to eat a sandwich. An amazing guy - not to say that Dave isn't, who by the way cuts and drills all of my boards for the Universal. He even made me a template that I can use if I want to use something different than his boards, and he did this without asking.

About the time Dave had the horn thing down, Bill Martinelli decided to retire. For those who didn't know, Bill built the Trachorn for Al. There is a story behind that, but we'll stay on Dave. Dave came up with a new and interesting way of building them, and what Al particularly liked was the strength of the design (Al is not to keen on resonating surfaces). Al and Dave begin working together and out comes The Fastrac. We have toyed with idea of becoming ALK Engineering and Associates - but keep backing away from the idea because we think it might end up being more trouble than it's worth. I don't know what came first, the Fastrac or the 2" version he developed in that thread - but it should be clear that no 2" Tractrix would have happened without Dave, Al, JC - and someone named Jeremy, who I don't know. From the thread, it looks like Jeremy was building from plans developed by JC - and Dave got involved at some point and took over the project. There are gaps here that I simply can't fill - I might even have a few things wrong. Maybe Dave or someone who knows can help.

The review states, "...Roberts developed a midrange horn and other components ..."

Uh, okay.

Arketype (Lee Clinton), who began this thread - often helps Al with testing. He has some serious test equipment and can perform some functions which Al can't. I believe Al is getting ready to mirror some of Lee's test equipment/ set up.

And then there is Max. It's hard to write about Max without choking up. Max Potter used to be an engineer with Bell South, and he had a special interest in microphones. He met with PWK several times in Hope. Max pursued and maintained relationships with several forum members, myself included. Though Max never posted, he followed everything on the forum. I learned about Max through Al, who would tell me something that apparently wasn't meant for public consumption

-- and would then swear me to secrecy. I finally started pressing for sources, and Al gave up Max so to speak. I finally just quit asking where the information was coming from. One day my phone rings. After introducing himself, Max tells me that he's been following my posts.

He asks me if I'm interested in knowing the "why about some things"?

That conversation lasted six hours. There were many calls over the years, Max loved educating. Many here probably know that it was Max who developed the "P-trap", which was designed to bring down the obnoxious peak in many of the older K-55-V drivers. What most don't know is that Max also brought us the first tractrix horn for the big Heritage loudspeakers -- it was his idea. It was Max and Al, who worked with Bill Martinelli -- who built them. Several of us miss Max very much.

Of course we always need to extend a special thanks to PWK, who is our inspiration for all of these things. I often wonder if he would be impressed at all, or just want to beat us over the head with his slide rule. I don't think PWK would be much impressed with a review completely devoid of test data. OTOH, maybe he would enjoy the irony of knowing that the data is here on his forum.

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Greg, I was just wondering if you were ever going to get around to thanking the people here that made this possible? Al K, Bill Martinelli, John Warren, and to the guy that suggested the drivers to you. I read the review and was somewhat disappointed to see no mention of this forum and the indispensable help you received from it. I still remember Al taking the time to teach you so many things, including making you remove the putty you had added into the transition area of the throat of the V-trac - a design you could not have pulled off without Al K, JC (James Cullison), or Bill. I wish you the best, but please don't forget from whence you came.

Dean, I've thanked all these people in person multiple times. Why would you think I'm not thankful for the help I've received or that I have forgotten that I received help from so many people?

The Stereophile review was not the place for me to talk about my ties to the DIY community. If you need me to explain this to you in more detail, please send me an email and I will.

There have been many more people in addition to the ones you've listed who have helped me greatly to get Volti Audio off the ground. Every success that Volti has, is there at least in part because of the support I get from others, and I am most appreciative.

Greg

Edited by greg928gts
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And out of the darkness there comes a light. Dean, you need to post that history in a new thread because those of us that weren't around from when all of that began would appreciate the information regarding the big picture and how it all unfolded, or at least I did even though I had read a lot of those threads and knew some of it. Everyone mentioned in the history have helped me at one time or another in the past few years along with many others; some directly and some indirectly including you and Greg and I really have and will continue to appreciate this forum and it's members for all of that help.

I do however have a couple of important announcements to make;

1. There will be a "Make Dean Smile More" intervention in Dayton next Wednesday at 3:00 PM please bring a covered dish and any crossovers that are in need of repair.

2. Immediately following the intervention will be a organized smart as& whipping that will go on until all sarcasm has been eliminated. :lol:

Confession time, when people come over to the house and listen to the split Cornscala's I tell them that I cut the woofer frames from a solid hunk of steel with nothing more than a Dremel with a special tip (that I invented) and the flared horns were made from scraps I had left from a piano I built, and now everyone is using them and that I was forced to build my own networks because I just wasn't happy with the crap that was being produced by other companies and I had to smuggle the special wood in from Russia for the cabinet and I cut everything with a handsaw.

Happy Saturday!

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As a lurker on the horn, crossover, and other offerings from the forum members which extend to outside this forum to products and success stories before my time here, I am always in awe to the vast knowledge of the audio world. Alot of names floated here, which are new to me.

So yes, I would agree that *Dean write some of this history in a thread as he appears to have a good handle on the subject, and is quite readable.

There is alot to be said about passion and a certain intensity for wanting to keep the record straight for posterity in our own time.

Thanks for all the above! If you see *Dean at the intervention, give him a big bear hug. A more patient technician, I have yet to find.

Congrats again Greg!

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Greg, I was just wondering if you were ever going to get around to thanking the people here that made this possible? Al K, Bill Martinelli, John Warren, and to the guy that suggested the drivers to you. I read the review and was somewhat disappointed to see no mention of this forum and the indispensable help you received from it. I still remember Al taking the time to teach you so many things, including making you remove the putty you had added into the transition area of the throat of the V-trac - a design you could not have pulled off without Al K, JC (James Cullison), or Bill. I wish you the best, but please don't forget from whence you came.

There have been many more people in addition to the ones you've listed who have helped me greatly to get Volti Audio off the ground. Every success that Volti has, is there at least in part because of the support I get from others, and I am most appreciative.

Greg

Classy reply, Mr. Roberts.

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Very nice article, but it is sad he isn't staying in the Klipsch upgrade business. He does some of the best looking cabinetwork I have ever seen on speakers. Greg is a man who is truly following a passion. A true success story.

Congratulations Greg!

Actually, the Klipsch Upgrades business is doing better than I thought it would at this point. I focus on upgrades for Khorns and Belles, and I figured the number of people inclined to do upgrades that haven't already, would decline as the years went on, but the business has remained steady. It's good work that keeps the lights on at my shop, and I intend to continue as long as I can.

Greg

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To the best of my knowledge you haven't thanked anyone. Al and a couple of others laughed and groaned at the same time when they read that. Maybe some specifics here to jolt the memory of those you thanked?

You attempt to take high ground where none exists for you. Your "classy response" is just another form of deflection.

"The Stereophile review was not the place for me to talk about my ties to the DIY community."

Where exactly would that place be? Your website maybe, because it's not there either. Neither are the specifics related to the design or any measurements. Well, with the exception of the modified LaScala bass horn -- all of the measurements are actually found here or on Al's website.

This is ridiculous. One sentence would have covered it:

I would like to thank and give full credit to James Cullison, Al Klappenberger of ALK Engineering, Bill Martinelli of woodhorn.com, John Warren of North Reading Engineering, and the many others, without whom this design would never have been realized.

Instead we read: "Roberts developed a midrange horn and other components..."

Incredible build quality, but outside of whatever you did to PK's horn, what exactly did you "develop".

I can't believe you didn't expect some blow back from that one!

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I felt "dirty" after reading that review, and so did many others. You seem to have no problem allowing as many as possible to believe that you did things you simply did not do.

Edited by AletheiaAudio
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This isn't personal, I have no horse in this race. I'm sorry you find the truth so distasteful. I stated my reasons earlier for why I decided to do this publicly. I don't have anything more to say anyways - enjoy your "nice" thread.

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I'm sorry you find the truth so distasteful.

There's the truth, and then there's the whole truth. The fact is, having the knowledge to make a product, and actually making it, and then making it successful in the market, are all very different things. I am an engineer by trade -- I know quite a lot about audio and I have a lot of ideas for audio products. I have started two businesses of my own. Neither of them have ever seen the kind of success that Greg has had with Volti. There is about a 10:1 -- maybe 100:1 -- ratio of effort between knowing how to do something and actually doing it and bringing it to market.

Greg and I even collaborated for a while. Ultimately he didn't use what I gave him, but he thanked me for it. Perhaps someday he and I can do it again. I give my knowledge freely on the forum, as does everyone else. I knew that Greg was developing a business, and that what I gave him might ultimately end up a part of that business, and I did it anyway. While I always hope that I can become rich and famous from my knowledge, that happens so incredibly rarely that in some cases it's satisfaction enough just knowing that it might be a small part of something great.

Was anyone who collaborated with Greg NOT aware of the situation? It's not like it was a secret.

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I'm sorry you find the truth so distasteful.

Was anyone who collaborated with Greg NOT aware of the situation? It's not like it was a secret.

What bothers me is I think I understand what Dean is saying. Giving credit on the forums means nothing. A very small number of the general population visits here. But a magazine with reasonably wide circulation is another matter entirely. Giving credit in an interview would speak volumes to how much you really acknowledge what has been handed you by others. Saying it here or even directly to them is saying it behind closed doors and doesn't really mean as much.

Bruce

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Giving credit in an interview would speak volumes to how much you really acknowledge what has been handed you by others.

OK; I can't really disagree with that. But I don't think that the omission was a sin of the magnitude that DeanG makes it out to be.

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I too may be guilty of not thanking some folks here for their contributions especially regarding my LS hybrid speaker build. At the time I thought the information was community property and we were all sharing ideas. I can't begin to tell you who came up with the idea of using Altec horns and drivers for the top hat but I readily adopted your idea.

I don't know who said Beyma "baby cheek" tweeters were really neat but I thought so too so I "borrowed" that suggestion as well.

There was talk at the time about stiffening the side cabinet wall of the LS bass bin so ditto like a thief in the night I went for that option as well using 1" MDF. I am pretty sure that was before the LS ll debut.

The only speaker system part I am sure of is the xover design that Al K. drew up for my particular situation and provided at no cost I might add. He was always credited in my system profile as was my bud bluesboy who put it all together.

So for those of you who did all the home work that allowed me to have a very nice sounding speaker system I thank you! It may be old school by now but it still suits my needs.

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I too may be guilty of not thanking some folks here for their contributions especially regarding my LS hybrid speaker build. At the time I thought the information was community property and we were all sharing ideas. I can't begin to tell you who came up with the idea of using Altec horns and drivers for the top hat but I readily adopted your idea.

I don't know who said Beyma "baby cheek" tweeters were really neat but I thought so too so I "borrowed" that suggestion as well.

There was talk at the time about stiffening the side cabinet wall of the LS bass bin so ditto like a thief in the night I went for that option as well using 1" MDF. I am pretty sure that was before the LS ll debut.

The only speaker system part I am sure of is the xover design that Al K. drew up for my particular situation and provided at no cost I might add. He was always credited in my system profile as was my bud bluesboy who put it all together.

So for those of you who did all the home work that allowed me to have a very nice sounding speaker system I thank you! It may be old school by now but it still suits my needs.

You didn't build a business on the info, though, did you? I didn't think so.

Bruce

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I too may be guilty of not thanking some folks here for their contributions especially regarding my LS hybrid speaker build. At the time I thought the information was community property and we were all sharing ideas. I can't begin to tell you who came up with the idea of using Altec horns and drivers for the top hat but I readily adopted your idea.

I don't know who said Beyma "baby cheek" tweeters were really neat but I thought so too so I "borrowed" that suggestion as well.

There was talk at the time about stiffening the side cabinet wall of the LS bass bin so ditto like a thief in the night I went for that option as well using 1" MDF. I am pretty sure that was before the LS ll debut.

The only speaker system part I am sure of is the xover design that Al K. drew up for my particular situation and provided at no cost I might add. He was always credited in my system profile as was my bud bluesboy who put it all together.

So for those of you who did all the home work that allowed me to have a very nice sounding speaker system I thank you! It may be old school by now but it still suits my needs.

You didn't build a business on the info, though, did you? I didn't think so.

Bruce

What business is it of yours Bruce what he did with the information he got here and who he thanked or didn't thank? If he did something illegal and you have the resources sue him. If not then let us appreciate his endeavors as one of our community.

Edited by Tarheel
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Not my 'business' at all. There are two folks on here, so far, that I will not do 'business' with, no matter how wonderful 'their' products are. Info was freely given, and then used to build a business. It only seems right that courtesy would have you say where you received your help other than imply that you did the engineering yourself. Are you upset at that concept? Like Dean, I'm done.

Bruce

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Not my 'business' at all. There are two folks on here, so far, that I will not do 'business' with, no matter how wonderful 'their' products are. Info was freely given, and then used to build a business. It only seems right that courtesy would have you say where you received your help other than imply that you did the engineering yourself. Are you upset at that concept? Like Dean, I'm done.

Bruce

Am I upset at that concept? Did you fail to comprehend my LS post above. Once more.....I believe it is good practice to recognize those here who have made substantial contributions to advance after market products and services whether they produce xovers or speaker systems. If there are no patent infringements and they choose to do so....then build a business.

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