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Forum member makes good


Arkytype

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Thanks to all the past, present and future posters of information which I may use to further my pleasure at no cost to me. If I should benefit financially from that information, may I have the presence of mind to display common coutesy as to properly thanks those individuals, as they did the lifting, and I did the copying.

Thank you Klipsch forum!

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Congratulations, Dean. Your petty bullshit has turned a simple congratulatory thread into a foum snipe fest. I hope you're satisfied.

You say "Cancer changed me." All you've demonstrated here is that you're a vindictive *******.

Edited by iRONic
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Thanks to all the past, present and future posters of information which I may use to further my pleasure at no cost to me. If I should benefit financially from that information, may I have the presence of mind to display common coutesy as to properly thanks those individuals, as they did the lifting, and I did the copying.

Thank you Klipsch forum!

I'll make the 'Forum member billybob makes good' thread.

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Thanks to all the past, present and future posters of information which I may use to further my pleasure at no cost to me. If I should benefit financially from that information, may I have the presence of mind to display common coutesy as to properly thanks those individuals, as they did the lifting, and I did the copying.

Thank you Klipsch forum!

I would like to add to billybob's great post and also thank the Klipsch forum!

In addition, when I was reading earlier today I noticed that in the Speaker Builder Magazine (1/86) that Dr. Edgar stated that “For Klipschorn, my midrange horn size should fit in the top volume for the mid and tweeter horns, although you may have to enlarge the cutout for the mouth. The Klipschorn is usually rated at 104 dB sensitivity, so a good choice is one of the 105 dB rated horns with some slight attenuation.”

I also noticed that his original paper on the Tractrix horn design was in Speaker Builder Magazine (2/81, p. 9). It seems that people have been modifying Klipschorn speakers before many of us were even members on the forum. Imagine that.....

It made me think that just in case I decide to crunch the math and build a horn one day maybe using the Tractrix flare (maybe even a 1.5” throat? I’ve seen the 1.4” but I don’t think I’ve seen a 1.5” yet…..), on behalf of myself, and all (if that isn't too presumptuous of me?) of the horn builders that have used the Tractrix flare; I would like to humbly thank Dr. Bruce C. Edgar for taking it upon himself way back in the early 1980s to revive the Tractrix contour by writing that now-famous article for Speaker Builder Magazine about the Tractrix horn contour. Until this point, most all discussions centered on the exponential horn that you could find in every textbook.

It seems that the Tractrix had been around for a while though. In fact, it seems that Voigt was the only one that wrote about the Tractrix contour and he actually patented the contour in the 1920s in England. Well I guess it is too bad for Voigt or his heirs as that patent is long expired. After studying Voigt’s work, I believe it may have been Dr. Edgar, as part of his 1981 article, that first set up the differential equation for the spherical wave fronts traveling all the way down the horn, becoming the mathematical expression that we now know and love as the Tractrix curve.

One thing to note is that the analytical formula for the Tractrix is actually for a round horn. However, when Dr. Edgar first started building the Tractrix horn, he did not have the capability to produce a round horn, so he may just have been the first person to convert the circular area into rectangles, hence the original forefather of that rectangular Tractrix horn that many of us know, love and listen to......

Excerpt from Dr. Edgar;

“Although this midrange horn construction project may seem out of the mainstream for some speaker builders, it offers a new and different path for upgrading your old horn system or closed box system……. The route I have shown for a good horn design is to choose a rectangular mouth (2:1 aspect ratio), or a square mouth, and a mouth size frequency cutoff equal to the flare rate frequency. Deviations from this design philosophy will introduce peaks in the response…….. This article has taken a number of years to assemble and digest the research results, and I think the wait has been worthwhile. It has been a labor of love with countless evenings……..and weekends spent with numerous drivers and horns in front of a spectrum analyzer. So for all the horn enthusiasts out there, I give you the Edgar Midrange Horn.”

In closing, I’m sure we all certainly would like to thank you, Dr. Edgar, for sharing your knowledge and experience so that many may profit by it…… :emotion-55::wacko2::emotion-14::emotion-22:

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"Vindictive"? That's a pretty strong word. It's also the wrong word. Please pay attention to what I'm actually saying. I have no idea what I would be seeking revenge for.

I mentioned Dr. Edgar earlier. While Al was developing the Trachorn, he often cited Dr. Edgar, usually within the context of the very article you mentioned from the Speaker Builder Magazine. Al still references both Dr. Edgar and Bill Martinelli on his horn upgrade page.

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I mentioned Dr. Edgar earlier. While Al was developing the Trachorn, he often cited Dr. Edgar, usually within the context of the very article you mentioned from the Speaker Builder Magazine. Al still references both Dr. Edgar and Bill Martinelli on his horn upgrade page.

I know that Al references Dr. Edgar. In fact I actually have one pair of only a few pairs of the 2" Tractrix horns that Martinelli built before retiring. It seemed like more of the history of the Tractrix would be appropriate and informative for readers.

Edited by Fjd
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I've been watching this thread and find it quite stimulating. Robert's creations are works of art, so good you know they are going to sound great without ever being within earshot. To a trained observer of Klipsch heritage, the lineage is clear and needs no clarification. In short, "I WANTS the precious..."

Those directly involved in the discussion have known each other a long time, and it shows. Some of the newer members involved are a bit more agitated than the situation requires even to the point of ad hominem, which adds nothing to a passionate discussion.

When Art Dudley was a principal at the long gone, and lamented, "Listener" magazine I enjoyed everything he wrote. I still like a lot of his pieces...including this one...but he's been forced by being at $tereophile to spin their way in a lot of stuff. In this case, I am certain Art understood immediately where the basic design came from and it shows through what he wrote, IMHO, just as clearly as if he'd listed all those going back to PWK who contributed.

Personally, I agree with Robert that a $tereophile review isn't an Oscar and doesn't require crediting everyone back to the first grade and that audiophiles who appreciate his designs are going to be well versed in their lineage. Further, an interviewee has no idea or influence over what is actually written and published. As a person with a background in broadcasting, I can tell all of you that what you THINK you said at the interview and what airs on the 6PM news is almost certainly to be so different as to make you wish you'd been elsewhere.

While spirited, I think the debate has been reasonably civil and certainly not on a par with many we've witnessed before.

Dave

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I also noticed that his original paper on the Tractrix horn design was in Speaker Builder Magazine (2/81, p. 9). It seems that people have been modifying Klipschorn speakers before many of us were even members on the forum. Imagine that.....

And, in the neverending march of technological change, even though Voigt's tractrix has many wonderful attributes, it is being superceded by constant directivity designs because of their superior polar responses. So I guess we will soon have to thank D.B. Keele (who himself thanks John Gilliom for the original idea) for all CD horn variants. After a while one realizes that this is just the way that technology progresses. As they say, one stands on the shoulders of giants.

(Full disclosure: despite my forum name, I am not Dr. Bruce Edgar, nor am I related to him or associated with him in any way. Though I sent him an email message once. Yes, he responded.)

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For the record, the Volti Audio V-Trac horn was the first Khorn replacement horn developed with a 2" throat - a feature that was soundly disregarded as unnecessary by ALK at the time. To my knowledge, the V-Trac horn, developed by me, with information that I gathered from many different sources, all of whom I have thanked numerous times and am eternally grateful to, has outsold all other Khorn replacement horns (regardless of throat size) combined. I believe this is because of the good marketing that I have done, implemented with information that I have gathered from many different sources, all of whom I have thanked numerous times and am eternally grateful to; and also because of my ability to take an idea through the prototype process and end up with a manufactured product; and also probably because most everyone who hears the V-Trac horn thinks it always has been and still is the best sounding replacement horn available for the Klipsch Khorn.

It should also be noted, that unlike all the other Klipsch upgrade parts suppliers, Volti Audio does not rely on the Klipsch forum for business. I'm not saying that Volti doesn't ever sell to a Klipsch forum member, I'm just saying that I'm not on here on a regular basis cultivating business.

I suppose I should thank Dean for keeping this thread up on top for the newbies here at the forum to see, and by doing so helping them become more acquainted with www.klipschupgrades.com

Thank you Dean.

Greg

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John Warren of North Reading Engineering has been extremely helpful to me during the development of the Vittora speaker. I was just scrolling through our email correspondence over the last couple of years, and there's 595 emails in his folder on my computer! He's provided me with a ton of information and answered a wide range of questions during that time. Thank you John.

Dean, there are many 'thank you's' scattered through the emails to John. I'm sure I've thanked him many times over the phone as well. I've probably said thank you several times as we shook hands after a meeting in person. I think you owe me an apology for giving me such a hard time about not saying thank you to John when clearly you were wrong about that.

There are a few people here on the forum that like to give me a hard time. I don't know why. Maybe they give others a hard time too. I don't deserve it. I'm not the one instigating issues here on the forum. Frankly I think Dean's problem is that he's jealous of my success with Volti Audio. The number of posts and the tone of his posts here is a little over the top if you ask me.

Greg

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There are a few people here on the forum that like to give me a hard time. I don't know why. Maybe they give others a hard time too. I don't deserve it. I'm not the one instigating issues here on the forum. Frankly I think Dean's problem is that he's jealous of my success with Volti Audio. The number of posts and the tone of his posts here is a little over the top if you ask me.

Greg

Crikey, Greg. Parthian shot? I think Dean had his say and left the room. The speakers are awesome, and nobody can deny.

Enjoy your success and go cut some wood!

Dave

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Parthian shot? Wow, I haven't heard that phrase in a long time. I think it was third year Latin in High School.

The Parthian shot in this thread is from Dean's unwarranted rant as he left the room. The line you quoted from me wasn't directed at Dean, so not a Parthian shot.

Greg

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Welcome back.

Are you going to be doing any audio shows/conferences, etc this year or next? I wouldn't mind attending one. I've never been and think it would be a fantastic experience.

As you can see I'm a little behind on this thread. Yes, I'll be doing three shows that I know of in 2014. First one will be AXPONA Chicago coming up in April. Next will be THE Show Newport, California at the end of May. Then Rocky Mountain Audio Fest in Denver in October. I would also like to do the Capital Audiofest again in 2014, but I'll have to see if the budget can handle a fourth show.

These audio shows are a blast, especially the big ones like RMAF and THE Show Newport. The very best equipment from all over the world is there, and most of the rooms really sound good. I'm still having a great time doing these shows. I say 'still' because I've been told by other manufacturers that it gets old after a while.

Hope to see you at a show in 2014.

Greg

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The line Dave quoted was definitely directed at me, half the paragraph was about me, and you even call me out by name.

I didn't respond to your post from Tuesday because not only was it a clear attempt at baiting me back into the thread, but it was filled with so much BS that I decided I didn't have the time to deal with it. I guess when I didn't respond you decided to try again -- well here I am. What you call an "unwarranted rant", is actually rather civilized. My posts on this topic are also considerably sanitized.

I started with a simple question, I even gave you your props. You keep using the word "develop". As they say, I don't think that word means what you think it means. I posted the link to the thread where JC's 2" tractrix was being worked. What I see is JC providing the math, Dave Harris working the build like it's a simple 5th grade art project -- and you -- pretty much lost. In the other thread, which I'm still looking for, it's mostly Al and everyone else guiding you through the more critical elements of your project.

You also had issues related to the project that were dealt with off-forum. I know Al gave you his Trachorn software so you could calculate the dimensions of the transition board, and in spite of speaking with Bill directly (after telling him you were only building a pair for your own personal use) -- you still made the curved sides of the horn out of a single layer of thin bendable plywood. If you had read Dr. Bruce Edgar's original article, you would have learned that he tried this, and found that it created resonances that effect the sound (comments on page 12 and Figure 13B on the following page). I saw a recent picture of one of your horns and noticed you finally added some braces (band aid). And yes, Bill saw the picture of all of those V-tracs stacked in your shop being used for "personal use" -- he was pretty pissed off.

594 emails between you and John? I knew the man was patient, but wow. I only have about a dozen. I got another one the other day after he saw this thread.

I'm going to stop now. You know, I just wanted you to publicly thank those who helped, and to give credit to those who rightfully deserved it. The only thing that's "over the top" in this thread are your claims.

EDIT: I forgot to address the accusation related to "jealousy". Once again. wrong word. I believe you mean "envious", which is silly. I would never be envious of someone else's success, especially the kind brought about by your tactics.

Edited by Amy
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