LaScala positioning - Can I get better imaging by upgrading from LaScalas to Khorns?

[tswei]

I've been really enjoying my restored late 70s LaScalas. I have found in my 18'x 32' room, on the short wall, they sound best about 12" from the back wall, and 18" from the side walls toed in, but not 45 degrees. The convergence point is about 2-3 feet beyond my listening position.

I tried them in the corners, but the imaging suffered quite a bit, and the sound was blurry/confused. Does this mean K-horns would not work in my room? I do have perfect corners for them but am concerned about my experience with the Scalas. With the Scalas pushed back into the corners, it's the same tweeter and midrange in almost the same position as I'd get with K-horns, right? The sound gets better as I move them AWAY from the corners. Would K_Horn be any different? It's kinda an expensive cumbersome thing to try if it ain't gonna work.

[Dennie]

Hey Tswei,

The good news is.... Khorns hold there value pretty good, so if you were to pick up a pair and ended up not liking the result, you could probably sell them for what you paid for them.

But! I think it is worth a try. Khorns are not La Scalas and are made to go into corners, where La Scalas were not. They were/are the portabale version of the Khorn and are stand alone speakers. Not to say they would not benefit from corners, as you found out, it is not always the case.

Your 18X30 room sounds Ideal for Khorns. I would think they would be worth a try.

Dennie

[tromprof]

I found that raising my La Scalas six inches to get the tweets up to ear level really helped imaging. You might give that a try with them in the corners. If that sounds better then the taller K-horns would be ok as well.

[Quiet_Hollow]

Does this mean K-horns would not work in my room?

No.

The sound gets better as I move them AWAY from the corners

This is typical and to be expected of any low freq speaker (horn or direct radiator) that isn't appropriately shaped to close-couple with a corner. It is not much unlike baffle step, cancellations off the flanks of the speakers. The triangular space on either side of the cabinets form a large notch in the freq response. Like Dennie is getting at, corner placement with a La Scala is not without compromise.

Some ways to deal with this is:

- do as you have done placement-wise

- simply live with it

- use bass traps on the flanks of the speakers at the expense of some sensitivity.

- or to situate solid baffles that would prevent the sound waves from wrapping around the mouth. Maximizing sensitivity barring cosmetics.

I recall reading an early paper where PWK had done just that for a touring horn prototype. He had "barn doors" on hinges that would open to the sides so that the speaker could still be tucked tightly into a corner, toe'd adequately, but prevent the symmetry involved in that type of placement from cannibalizing the lower mid-range response.

The Klipschorn does not suffer from this inherently because the horn is close coupled with it's flanking surfaces, so long as there is nothing largely reflective placed within a few feet to either side of the cabinet.

I've experienced this same trait with my La Scalas... I just simply lived with it, as I've never had the space to pull them out of the corners any.

[Islander]

tswei, it sounds like you have your La Scalas fairly well placed, so they should need to be moved only a little more. Is the imaging good with where you have them placed and pointed now? Have you tried placing them closer to the front wall (the wall behind them). Bringing La Scalas out into the room doesn't improve their sound.

In my room, one side is open, so I placed the speaker that does have a side wall several feet away from that side wall to minimize its effect and keep both speakers in similar surroundings. I found the smoothest bass response with the cabinets 5" away from the front wall at the nearest corner and 15" at the furthest corner. This also gives the best imaging.

That results in about a 25 degree angle toe-in from firing straight into the room. At the listening position, the inboard sides of the cabinets line up to the eye, meaning the cabinets are not exactly aimed at the listener, but converge at a point a bit behind him. This gives a useably wide sweet spot and the imaging is really good.

Lining up the speakers and the listener to form an equilateral triangle means each corner has a 60 degree angle, or to put it another way, the speakers would be toed in 30 degrees from straight ahead. This would have the speakers aimed directly at the listener. That sounds ideal in theory, but can give a very narrow sweet spot, meaning the channel balance changes quite a bit with even a slight movement of your head to one side or the other. That's not too convenient in most cases, especially if you like to listen with someone sitting beside you.

It's always a good idea to experiment a bit to see what works best for you in your room. That may even change over time. It is, or should be, a learning process, like most things in life, while taking time to enjoy each step of the process.

[NOSValves]

Having them 12" off the back wall and 18" off the side wall is still in the "corner". Want to hear them really sound like crap move them 4' off both walls and watch(hear) the bass disappear and the speaker become very biting and bright. The Lascala has to be near a corner to sound right. Toeing them as you describe is always the best so they converge just behind your seated position.

The Khorns in those same corner will net you lower bass but the same congested and confused sound field and imaging. They will be firing in front of you which is never a good thing. Now put the Khorns on those long walls and you will be cooking!

Lascala trick... tilt the front of the speaker up to get the horns shooting a bit higher...about 2" does the trick but it depends on how far back you are the further back the less you have to tilt them so experimentation is key. I've been using Lascala and variants of for about 10 years now.

[tswei]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. NOSValves makes a comment about short vs long wall. I wish I could use the long wall but just cannot because of how the room is used. I really never quite understood why using the long (vs short) wall is so important for K-Horns. Is this because there is too much interference between the channels before signal reaches listener? Whereas with the long wall configuration, the wave has a long fetch to travel with no obstruction before hitting the listeners ears??

[NOSValves]

Khorns work better on the long wall because you are stuck with them shooting 45 degrees out of the corner which in most cases on a short wall in a room will have them converging in front of you. Horns are pesky in that way. They always sound much better shooting at your ears or just a bit outside your ears. This problem is less so/ with newer tractrix flare horn replacements you see so many folks moving too. This I believe is also why all the modern Klipsch speakers use tractrix horns.

[Sancho Panza]

Old Thread Alert: Top so I may find it more conveniently...

[Chris A]

I've been really enjoying my restored late 70s La Scalas. I have found in my 18'x 32' room, on the short wall, they sound best about 12" from the back wall, and 18" from the side walls toed in, but not 45 degrees. The convergence point is about 2-3 feet beyond my listening position.

I tried them in the corners, but the imaging suffered quite a bit, and the sound was blurry/confused. Does this mean K-horns would not work in my room? I do have perfect corners for them but am concerned about my experience with the Scalas. With the Scalas pushed back into the corners, it's the same tweeter and midrange in almost the same position as I'd get with K-horns, right? The sound gets better as I move them AWAY from the corners. Would K_Horn be any different? It's kinda an expensive cumbersome thing to try if it ain't gonna work.

If you are still looking for alternatives that allow better corner-located performance, then perhaps trying a couple of simple tricks will really improve their current performance there.

1) Try placing your La Scalas in the corners - well within 18 inches of each wall. Flush against the side and front walls would be good, too.

2) Place absorbent material, such as a thick, fuzzy blanket on the walls at the exit to the front of the speakers and outwards from that point ~2-4 feet, in both directions horizontally and at least 2 feet vertically from the center of the exit of each midrange horn.

3) Place a fair amount of fuzzy material on top of the speaker, letting it hang over the top about an inch or two.

4) Place sufficient sound absorbing material on the floor in front of the speaker ~2-4 feet deep from the front of the speakers.

5) Aim the speakers directly at your listening position

6) Sit directly on the centerline between the speakers and listen. If you don't have dramatically improved imaging now, then:

a. move all sound-reflective objects from between the speakers, or

b. place sound absorbing material over these objects.

Listen again. You should have extended bass response and dramatically improved imaging. Listen for high midbass response in the 200-300 Hz region to make sure that response dips weren't created.

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. NOSValves makes a comment about short vs long wall. I wish I could use the long wall but just cannot because of how the room is used. I really never quite understood why using the long (vs short) wall is so important for K-Horns. Is this because there is too much interference between the channels before signal reaches listener? Whereas with the long wall configuration, the wave has a long fetch to travel with no obstruction before hitting the listeners ears??

The long wall is used to get the speakers further away from the listeners so that the time misalignment of drivers isn't as noticeable, and the low frequency response of the speaker is more than 1/4 wavelength away so that you're out of the near field of the source(s).

If you simply remove the tweeters from inside your La Scalas and place them on top (still electrically connected to their crossovers), but aligned with the midrange horn/driver joint just below the tweeter, you will experience a great improvement in imaging, even in the near field. This will achieve about 90% of the noticeable time alignment of the drivers. The other misalignment with the low frequency section of the speaker will create smaller disturbances in the crossover spectrum to the bass bin at ~400-500 Hz, which is less noticeable.

Chris

Edited December 28, 2013 by Cask05

[joessportster]

you should ask yourself 1 thing about sound stage and that is do you prefer 3d or 2d, the khorns excel in everything except 3d sound stage (in other words sound appearing to come from behind the speakers) they will present an ultra wide sound stage but everything stops at the rear wall they are placed against (at least that was my impression on all 4 pair i have owned) i have had lascalas at least 3 feet off the back wall and they would present a nice deep sound stage but of course the bass suffered (subwoofer solved this, but thats another big hunt for a good sub, that sounds good musically. Not just a boom maker)

[derringmusik]

I found that raising my La Scalas six inches to get the tweets up to ear level really helped imaging. You might give that a try with them in the corners. If that sounds better then the taller K-horns would be ok as well.

Is this also helpful for the La Scala II? I think the LSII is about 3 inches taller than the original LS. Does the LSII also benefit from risers, or is the tweeter/midrange height already elevated sufficienctly in the taller LSII cabinet? Thanks.

[derringmusik]

I read the exuberant and positive La Scala II review by Sam Tellig from several years ago, and he actually hooked up a supertweeter to use with the La Scala II. He used it to extend the upper frequencies, since the upper frequencies only extend to about 17kHz on the stock LSII tweeter. Anyone here try using a supertweeter? I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on this. Thanks!

[Shakeydeal]

If you want better imaging, move them out into the room as far as you can. Don't buy into this corner placement BS, they need to be away from room boundaries then they can sound 3 dimensional and open. Imaging is great with them in this position.

Shakey

[Sancho Panza]

Yeah, stay away from that Paul W. Klipsch BS

[Shakeydeal]

_{Don't uphold PWK's theory on what is correct for speaker placement as though it were biblical. I am sure he was of the same mind as the majority on this site in that he didn't want to intrude on the living space of the room. And at the time, almost all speakers were used against a wall. It was unheard of to put them several feet into the room. Time marches on and we realize now that for better tonal balance and imaging (if fhat's your thing, it isn't for everyone), wall boundaries do more harm than good. It's ok if you want to put your speakers in the corner or up against the wall, it really is O K. But you know (and I know you do) that you aren't getting all the performance out of them (K-horns excluded from this for obvious reasons) that you could.}

_Shakey

[Chris A]

_{"Don't uphold PWK's theory on what is correct for speaker placement as though it were biblical."}

Nor do I, but I try out what he said, adjusting until I figure out what he was doing and why it worked so well.

"I am sure he was of the same mind as the majority on this site in that he didn't want to intrude on the living space of the room."

What PWK actually said was that greatly increased bass modulation distortion and a big loss of bass extension with accompanying notches in FR at higher frequencies were much greater issues. You can deal with imaging and tonal balance issues by arranging your furnishings and treatments accordingly. I don't see that in your pictures yet.

"Time marches on and we realize now that for better tonal balance and imaging (if that's your thing, it isn't for everyone)..."

However, the physics don't change over time.

"...wall boundaries do more harm than good..."

I wish that I could get you to try (all) the suggestions, as in together, all at the same time that I gave on this thread above--in A-B trial. Note that the suggestions don't have to cost money, just time and the willingness to work with them for a while, The greatest cost might be that you've actually missed out on a better arrangement and didn't know it.

"It's ok if you want to put your speakers in the corner or up against the wall, it really is O K. But you know (and I know you do) that you aren't getting all the performance out of them (K-horns excluded from this for obvious reasons) that you could."

Think about what you are saying: the same midrange and tweeter in approximately the same baffle as a Khorn sounds better out on the floor with a La Scala, but better in the corner with a Khorn. Something isn't adding up.

Chris

Edited January 2, 2014 by Cask05

[Shakeydeal]

No, I still don't think a K-horn is going to image as well as a quality speaker positioned out in the room. Most people have already said this. But corners are necessary for bass augmentation on K-horns. Not so with Cornwalls. Lascalas would probably benefit some from near wall placement, but it is my contention that you give up other things. It's up to the end user to decide which of those "things" are more important.

I get the impression from reading many posts on this forum that the consensus is more about getting the most bass slam, and less about the quality of the musical presentation. You may not be one of those guys, but there are a lot of them here.

Shakey

[Chris A]

"I get the impression from reading many posts on this forum that the consensus is more about getting the most bass slam, and less about the quality of the musical presentation. You may not be one of those guys, but there are a lot of them here."

My goal is accuracy and low distortion - I actually knock down the FR of the Jub bass bins below 250 Hz in several areas to get a much flatter response.

My exhortations to try the suggestions are there only for your potentially increased enjoyment. La Scalas can be very good performers (but not on par with Khorns or Jubs, IMHE): they lack almost two octaves of good horn-loaded lf response on the bottom end. I find it hard to believe that you don't really miss that response.

Additionally, I've heard Khorns poorly set up and set up to blow away almost anything that I've ever heard -- in terms of imaging. It depends on the implementation and the room's properties.

Chris

Edited January 2, 2014 by Cask05

[Shakeydeal]

I am using Cornscalas, so I am not lacking for much in bass response. I have a friend who has Lascalas, and while they do most acoustic music very well, I would need at least another octave to satisfy me on most of the music I listen to.

Shakey