Jump to content
The Klipsch Audio Community
Sign in to follow this  
tswei

LaScala positioning - Can I get better imaging by upgrading from LaScalas to Khorns?

Recommended Posts

No, I still don't think a K-horn is going to image as well as a quality speaker positioned out in the room. Most people have already said this.

I don't think I ever heard true imaging before I spread my La Scala out and toed them in like KHorns, with one of them in a corner. I get the same imaging with speakers disappearing from the room with KHorns. So for me they image better than a quality speaker positioned out in the room.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If good imaging is the only thing threadstarter is missing, it can easily be obtained with acoustic treatment. The earliers reflections are the most detrimental ones. Use a minumum of 4" thick absorption panels.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"Time marches on and we realize now that for better tonal balance and imaging (if that's your thing, it isn't for everyone)..." However, the physics don't change over time.

The interpretation of the physics does change over time though....

There are several reasons why a speaker far away from boundaries can offer much better imaging: and it has everything to do with understanding the relationship of direct and indirect sound, and maximizing the density of the semi-reverberant sound field. The crew at Syn Aud Con have explored this quite a bit - I had their papers at one point, but can't seem to find them again. And then there's RPG Inc who has all sorts of great research on the subject available for free:

http://www.rpginc.com/Technology.cfm

I would recommend this one in particular as it hits on a lot of the variables at play (none of which I've ever seen PWK discuss):

http://www.rpginc.com/docs%5CTechnology%5CWhite%20Papers%5CMinimizing%20Acoustical%20Distortion%20in%20Project%20Studios.pdf

This is another good one: Page 50 starts what I believe is the most cutting edge for acoustic treatment:

http://www.rpginc.com/docs%5CTechnology%5CPresentations%5CMedia%20Room%20Design.pdf

A good summary of the history starts on page 35.

Edited by DrWho
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would recommend this one in particular as it hits on a lot of the variables at play (none of which I've ever seen PWK discuss):

http://www.rpginc.com/docs%5CTechnology%5CWhite%20Papers%5CMinimizing%20Acoustical%20Distortion%20in%20Project%20Studios.pdf

Actually it is D'Antonio that I subscribe to the most - if you look at his last 10 suggestions, you might see that my suggestions are congruent with his.

PWK also wrote on corner loading of speakers in the late 1950s, and D'Antonio's suggestions are actually in harmony with his, believe it or not. Diffusion and other forms of absorption using viscosity effects in panels and resonating plates are new, however. The reflection-free zone (RFZ) and Ambisonics concepts are basically what I recommend with corner horns--it works spectacularly in my listening room.

Chris

Edited by Cask05

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If good imaging is the only thing threadstarter is missing, it can easily be obtained with acoustic treatment. The earliers reflections are the most detrimental ones. Use a minumum of 4" thick absorption panels.

Agreed.

I get pretty good imaging with Khorns; true, the image across the sound stage is better than the depth. About a year ago I followed some of Cask's suggestions about placing absorbers to the sides of the Khorns. There is a wall to wall carpet and a high ceiling a la Heyser, a few other absorbers and many diffusers. I suspect that all these things help.

That being said, imaging ranks last among the qualities I value. I think the magazines and dealers, etc. have been ga ga about imaging for the past decade or more, to the near exclusion of other factors. To me, if I had to rank order qualities by importance, having both the individual instruments and the orchestras, bands, etc., sound like themselves to the degree that makes my heart sing would be number one. Some expensive audiophile speakers, well out into the room, fail to do that for me. Number two might be realistic, full dynamics whith very clean attacks. Number three may not be separate from number two; it would be low percieved distortion. Number four might be frequency response, but it doesn't need to be ultra wide, but should have more extended bass than La Scalas, unless they are placed in a way that enhances the bass. For most CDs, SACDs, and nearly all movies, Audyssey helps my Khorns and the room sound better, and have smoother response. I appreciate good imaging, but, as I said, it is last, IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If good imaging is the only thing threadstarter is missing, it can easily be obtained with acoustic treatment. The earliers reflections are the most detrimental ones. Use a minumum of 4" thick absorption panels.

Agreed.

I get pretty good imaging with Khorns; true, the image across the sound stage is better than the depth. About a year ago I followed some of Cask's suggestions about placing absorbers to the sides of the Khorns. There is a wall to wall carpet and a high ceiling a la Heyser, a few other absorbers and many diffusers. I suspect that all these things help.

That being said, imaging ranks last among the qualities I value. I think the magazines and dealers, etc. have been ga ga about imaging for the past decade or more, to the near exclusion of other factors. To me, if I had to rank order qualities by importance, having both the individual instruments and the orchestras, bands, etc., sound like themselves to the degree that makes my heart sing would be number one. Some expensive audiophile speakers, well out into the room, fail to do that for me. Number two might be realistic, full dynamics whith very clean attacks. Number three may not be separate from number two; it would be low percieved distortion. Number four might be frequency response, but it doesn't need to be ultra wide, but should have more extended bass than La Scalas, unless they are placed in a way that enhances the bass. For most CDs, SACDs, and nearly all movies, Audyssey helps my Khorns and the room sound better, and have smoother response. I appreciate good imaging, but, as I said, it is last, IMO.

Hey now... ;) I am pretty satisfied with the bass from my LS. Enough so that I have been dragging my feet on doing the bass mod. However, I did dial back the mids a fair amount, which really helped to give a better balance.

The new house is not too bad, but I have windows along most of the left wall. I also don't have carpet on the floor, but still retain the huge oriental rug. What I think may be the biggest difference is the huge bookcase. I think it very likely acted like a QRD of sorts. (may be why libraries are actually so quiet, but I would hate to have to calculate the diffusion).

Bruce

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A bookshelf doesn't really diffuse. It scatters some, but mainly absorbs.

Diffusion in the early reflection zone doesn't give as good imaging as absorption or redirection (splayed walls) but broadens the image with more spaciousness. If the goal is accuracy and great imaging using either absorbent panels or angled hard panels is the best option for early reflections and use diffusion for later arrving reflections. This is basically LEDE/RFZ in a nutshell. It's important though that absorbents are thick enough to absorb everything above the schroeder frequency. Using thin panel like 2", carpents or similar only attenutes the very highs and easily makse the room sound dull and dead. Even 4" thick panels is a compromise. 6" or 8" is better.

Edited by Bjorn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A bookshelf doesn't really diffuse. It scatters some, but mainly absorbs.

Diffusion in the early reflection zone doesn't give as good imaging as absorption or redirection (splayed walls) but broadens the image with more spaciousness. If the goal is accuracy and great imaging using either absorbent panels or angled hard panels is the best option for early reflections and use diffusion for later arrving reflections. This is basically LEDE/RFZ in a nutshell. It's important though that absorbents are thick enough to absorb everything above the schroeder frequency. Using thin panel like 2", carpents or similar only attenutes the very highs and easily makse the room sound dull and dead. Even 4" thick panels is a compromise. 6" or 8" is better.

I believe you missed the humor... However, looking at this, you can understand why I made the comment. A row of books could easily look like a 1 dimensional QRD.

http://www.hunecke.de/en/knowledge/diffusors/qrd.html

Bruce

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When we first got our LaScalla's we positioned them every way possible even firing them straight down looking for that deep base. Finally built horn subs for that chore then placed the LaScalla's on top Wow! they really shine at that level especially being crossed to handle the mid and high range. Everybody that has heard this stack so far has walked away smiling big time. The search is over for this cat!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/9/2014 at 8:15 AM, Marvel said:

Hey now... ;) I am pretty satisfied with the bass from my LS. Enough so that I have been dragging my feet on doing the bass mod. However, I did dial back the mids a fair amount, which really helped to give a better balance.

The new house is not too bad, but I have windows along most of the left wall. I also don't have carpet on the floor, but still retain the huge oriental rug. What I think may be the biggest difference is the huge bookcase. I think it very likely acted like a QRD of sorts. (may be why libraries are actually so quiet, but I would hate to have to calculate the diffusion).

Bruce

How did you "dial back your mids"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, ka7niq said:

How did you "dial back your mids"

Probably put them in the same time machine as this thread...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...