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The BEST way to clean & preserve vinyl


DizRotus

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've made some progress putting together my own set of supplies for some experimenting. After some back-and-forth (literally) with a vendor, I've received a pint of benzalkonium chloride concentrate (50%)... they accidentally shipped me a full gallon (and charged me accordingly) and it took a few days to arrange an exchange. I'm going to try various concentrations of this, as an anti-static agent and as a pre-wash detergent/surfactant, and try to figure out what concentrations are adequate to provide anti-static protection for a record and to act as a surfactant. If this works out, it should serve as both a wetting agent and as an anti-static component for the "peel". For what it's worth, the usual starting dilution for medical use of BK is 1:750, or just over .1% - a little goes a long way (and I should note that what I bought is "technical grade" BK, not USP medical grade!)

Vegetable glycerine wasn't terribly easy to find, locally. None of the drugstore chains I tried, seem to carry it these days... not enough demand to merit giving it shelf-space, I guess. I eventually found a bottle of food-grade glycerine in the skin-care section at Whole Foods, and the price wasn't terrible. An 8-ounce bottle will be enough to make plenty of facial peel, at Williamson's recommended rate (10 ml glycerine per 500 ml of liquid, or about 2%).

I've been wondering... Williamson recommended two different types of alcohol for his mixtures. For the straight-up antistatic spray he recommended using isopropyl alcohol (50%, in distilled water). For the "peel" he suggested using up to 10% of "denatured" alcohol - his wording strongly suggests he's referring to ethanol, and the editor's comments suggest a bottle of vodka as being the least expensive source.

I've seen one other article on record cleaning/care which specifically recommends against using ethanol for vinyl records, on the grounds that it's harder on the vinyl than isopropyl.

Does anyone know whether there's any specific reason not to use isopropyl alcohol in the "peel" mixture? Incompatibility with PVA? Anything like that?

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I did some initial (crude and simple) experiments - results are interesting, and as far as I can tell they're good.

I made up a liter of BKC750 (benzalkonium chloride solution in distilled water, 1:750 - about 2.5 CCs of 50% concentrate in a liter of water). This is the usual "stock solution" dilution used for simple medical purposes (disinfecting small wounds, pre-surgical skin scrub, etc.). One manufacturer's data sheet says that this concentration has enough detergent power to remove dirt, oils, and loose dead skin cells during a "scrub". The solution is colorless, foams slightly when shaken, has a slippery "feel" between the fingers, and (not surprisingly) smells like Bactine.

I got out a garage-sale LP that I cleaned a few weeks ago with a Titebond II "peel" and had played and digitized. Placed a few drops of distilled water on the surface... the drops "beaded up" significantly, and when I brushed one aside it left much of the area it had been sitting quite dry... it hadn't "wet" the surface effectively.

A few drops of the BKC750 solution behaved differently. They sat "lower and wider" on the record surface, and if I tried to brush one to the side it simply smeared out, leaving the original area wet. I observed one undisturbed drop after a few minutes, and saw that there appeared to be a very thin layer of moisture "wicking out" along the grooves for several millimeters.

I poured about a half-capful of the solution on the surface, and wiped it around the album with a clean cloth. Excellent coverage of the grooves, with some slight appearance of a fine, short-lived foam if I brushed vigorously. There was some tendency of thinner areas of the liquid to "pull back" from the flat, ungrooved portion of the lead-out area, but not from any of the grooves.

I wiped most of the solution off after a minute or so, using a clean paper towel, and then vacuumed the surface with my Record Doctor to remove the remainder and dry the surface.

I played and digitized one side of the album, using the same setup as before. There was no sense or sound of static electricity or discharge, either before playing (after vacuuming) or after play when I took the LP off of the platter mat. I remember that the record had crackled quite merrily when I had peeled the Titebond II off!

To my ears, the digitized data doesn't sound any different than the previous capture.

I fired up Audacity and compared portions of the audio waveform, and a sonogram, between the "pre-BKC" and "post-BKC" captures. Many of the remaining low-level ticks on the LP are essentially identical on the sonogram. Each capture has a few low-level ticks that the other does not; I didn't see any substantial trend in favor of either.

Looking at the sonograms and waveforms, it appears that the broad-spectrum background noise level on the "post-BKC" capture is slightly less than on the "pre-BKC" capture. Running the FFT analysis on a quiet passage seemed to show that the post-BKC track was several dB quieter. I don't know whether this is due to the additional "wash and wipe" I performed, or to anti-static or other action of the BKC remaining on the surface, or due to the fact that the "post-BKC" play may have benefited from some some "stylus cleaning" of the groove by the "pre-BKC" playback, or something else.

Initial conclusions: (1) This concentration of BKC (about .15%) acts as effective wetting agent for distilled water on LP vinyl; (2) it may have enough detergent action to serve as an effective groove "pre-scrub" to loosen accumulated contaminants, and (3) it may be serving as an effective anti-static agent.

Next experiments: [A] see if I can "provoke" static on this treated LP (gotta find a piece of silk to rub it with), and mix up a batch of Williamson's "peel" formula with roughly this concentration of BKC in the mix, try a few peels, and see how it works.

It will be interesting to see whether enough BKC remains on the LP surface after a "peel" treatment, to serve as an effective anti-static treatment. Shouldn't need much... just a mono-molecular layer.

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I too have a anti-static problem and have my late parents Lp collection (800 or so) that have not seen daylight in 35 years. I have a DIY RCM/vacuum and use my Zerostat gun before after cleaning and playing. Treating the LP would great. I hope someone comes up with a kit.

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More experiments this weekend. I made up a batch of Williamson's "peel" and tested it on two records... and I think I can say that I'm sold! This mix definitely has benefits over TiteBond II.

I made up a small batch, sticking pretty close to Williamson's published formula. 150 ml of cold distilled water in a microwave-safe glass measuring cup, weighed out and stirred in 20 grams of Elvanol, put the cup in a saucepan half-full of water and brought the water to a simmer over a gas stove. Stirred the mixture until the Elvanol suspension dissolved (it does take quite a while), then added 4 ml of vegetable glycerine and 1/2 ml of 50% benzalkonium chloride solution (wetting agent and anti-static).

Took it off the heat, added 20 ml of technical-grade isopropyl alcohol... and felt like Charlie Brown when he touched the little Christmas tree and it wilted. The solution immediately turned stringy and white... like I'd dropped raw egg whites into boiling water.

I think this was mostly due to temperature shock (and, possibly, PVA is less soluble in alcohol than in water?). I stirred the alcohol in well, put the container back in the saucepan double-boiler, and re-heated and kept stirring, and eventually almost all of the stringy white semi-solid dissolved back into solution again... I picked out the last couple of bits. Next time I'll pre-measure the alcohol into a bottle and sit it in a pan of hot water to warm up first, and will stir it into the mixture more slowly. Once the solution was clear and consistent I added enough distilled water to bring it up to 200 ml, stirred well, and called it soup.

Anyhow, what I ended up with is a plastic squeeze bottle full of a clear syrupy liquid. It becomes a gel if cooled to around 50 degrees, and liquifies again at 70.

I've tested it on two 10" LPs from the 1956 RCA Victor Encyclopedia of Jazz series. Disc 1 was pretty cruddy, and I applied the peel solution with no pre-treatment at all. In a warm room, with a small fan blowing on it, it dried within an hour or so, and peeled off easily. Side 2 was a bit more complex to peel - the film tended to "shred" into strands if I tried to peel it off "along the radius". Pulling it up in a circular motion ("with the grooves") seems to work better. I may have brushed on too thin a layer?

I did the second LP today... and that's when I discovered that the syrup had gelled in the cold garage overnight. I went ahead and applied it as a gel, and it seemed to go into the grooves well enough when brushed... I ended with a thicker film, though, which required a couple of hours to dry. Peeled off beautifully once it dried.

I had decided to try pre-scrubbing LP #2 before applying the "facial"... wet each side with a capful of the BKC750 solution I'd made up, and brushed along-the-grooves with a piece of soft-bristle painting pad, then wiped and vacuumed dry and applied the "facial".

The results seem very promising. I think the second disc turned out quieter than the first, due to the detergent pre-scrub... seems like a good idea to get as much of the superficial gunk, and any greasy fingerprints off of the disc surface before using the "facial". The PVA film can't adhere to dirt if it can't get down to it through an upper layer of dirt, I suppose.

I was very pleased to note that neither LP exhibited any sign of static electricity, either when I peeled off the film, or at any later time. Nada, none, zip. This is a stark contrast to a TiteBond II peel, which generates vast amounts of separation charge.

After I peeled off the film, I held one of the smaller wisps of thin film down towards the record. If I brought it over to the black rubber "work mat" I use when cleaning my records (an old Sound Guard mat), the little tendril of film would bent to point towards the nearest part of the mat... there was enough static charge to attract it. The LPs, though... the film just floats above the vinyl and shows no sign of being attracted or repelled.

I can't give any hard numbers on static charge (I don't have a working electrometer) but even in a dry, cold garage there's no sign of crackling, and no sense of electricity if I hold the LP up near my cheek. I think that the benzalkonium chloride is doing what I had hoped it would... it's pretending that it's Cyastat :-)

Compared to TiteBond II, the Williamson PVA film is much more flexible and elastic. It seems to hold together nicely, even when it's so thin that a TiteBond II film would tear and fracture into flakes. It definitely releases from the vinyl more easily... in fact, when I fan-dried one LP side in a warm room, I could see that the PVA film was starting to "self-release" from a few of the individual grooves as it dried out, just as TiteBond Extend is reported to do.

So, I think the effort of brewing up the Williamson formula is worthwhile (although collecting the ingredients is definitely a pain!). TiteBond II is easily available, not expensive, and it does work well as a record "peel"... but the Williamson formula peels more easily, and adding an anti-static ingredient makes it a superior solution!

And, I learned something new, when I was playing tracks of the jazz LPs to see how they sounded. Up until today, I had simply never known that there even was a "clean" version of "Barnacle Bill the Sailor"! :)

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Dave-

Great report.

IMO, the Williamson slurry beats the glue because it includes beneficial ingredients, such as Photo-Flo and glycerin, while excluding ingredients important in wood glue, but unnecessary in this application.

I like to put it on sort of thick and work it into the grooves with a foam brush. I let the records dry over night. Plastic highball cups are used to stack records 5 or 6 high while drying. I'll do one side of 6 - 12 records and then go back to do the other sides. That way, the first record is dry enough to have the the first wet side hanging down while side 2 dries.

It seems your alternative to Cyastat SN works well. As suggested at the end of the article, I put the Cyastat right in the slurry so that the records get a cleansing facial and ant-static treatment at the same time. I have also done the anti-static treatment separately with similar results. Your experience regarding the inability of the record to thereafter accept a static charge mirrors my own.

Regarding Cyastat SN, my source at Cytec is working diligently on locating a source that will bottle and sell the stuff to individuals in the relatively small amount needed. I'll report any results.

Distilled water and suitable alcohol are easy to find. Dupont Elvanol is available from ChemicalStore.com (see attached). Glycerin and Kodak Photo-Flo 200 are available from Amazon (see attached). The Cyastat SN is another matter. While I'm certain other compounds are suitable (perhaps better), I know Cyastat SN works, so I'll continue my efforts to find a way to make it available to the forum.

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Edited by DizRotus
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  • 4 weeks later...

Nothing new to report. My source for Cyastat SN promised to follow up after the holidays. I'll wait a few more days before bothering him again.

I went to edit the videos made before the holidays, but now I can't locate the Flip video camera that holds the raw footage. I'm fearing it got "recycled" with the gift wrap, etc. If I don't locate it this coming weekend, I'll replace it and start over.

Edited by DizRotus
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GREAT NEWS!

My source for Cyastat SN just sent the following email:

"1 Gal should arrive 1/16 to your commercial address. Good Luck!"

The bad news is that he was unable to locate a retail distributor willing to bottle and ship to individuals in the relatively small quantities needed. So, despite my misgivings, I will re-bottle Cyastat SN and ship to interested forum members. I'll figure out a nominal charge to cover the bottles and the postage. My expectation is that it will be less than $10/bottle for enough to do hundreds of records.

I would have no problem characterizing a PayPal transaction as sending $$ to a friend, rather than a sale. I will not be doing this to make money. I will need to be reimbursed for the cost of a suitable container and postage.

Best,

Neil

Edited by DizRotus
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Are you willing to send across border to Toronto for a few extra dollars? I'd love to test it out when you're ready!

I don't know, after what the Leafs did to the Wings in the Big House.

Oh well. to quote Curly Howard, "Soitanly."

After the gallon (I hope he was referring to a liquid measure and not a female, as my wife might object) arrives I'll figure out the logistics and then interested members can send mailing addresses.

Edited by DizRotus
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Neil you are going to be snowed with emails on this. Do yourself a favor and make it $20 via Paypal only and members in good standing. Guys like David Platt, of course, automatically meet the member criteria ,given his contribution to the thread.

Put me down for one and thank you for all your work on this so far, and in the near future.

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The recipe is attached as a pdf and pasted into this post below.

The measurements need not be precise. One pound of the Dupont Elvanol available from the chemical store.com (see post #69 above) will clean MANY records. The recipe refers to a batch using 2 oz of Elvanol. Naturally, if you make a batch using 4 oz of Elvanol you would double everything else. The recipe assumes adding the Cyastat SN to the "facial" mixture. Therefore, to use 16 oz of Elvanol you would need only 4 tsp of Cyastat SN. A little goes a long way.

That's what was frustrating about my search for Cyastat SN. It's inclusion is critical, even though a small amount is all that's needed. If you do the math, you can see that one gallon (768 tsp) of Cyastat will go a long way. I plan to dispense approximately 6 tsp of Cyastat SN per request, at least to start. I doubt that will make a dent in the gallon. Everything else is readily available (again, see post #69 above).

I'll explore shipping alternatives, such as USPS flat rate, FedEx and/or UPS. Sending "dangerous" liquid through the mail, especially to Canada presents a challenge. I considered the possibility of having recipients mail a self-addressed return shipping paid box to me that I will then use to send the Cyastat SN to the requester. I'll identify the weight and dimensions of the bottle containing 6 tsp of Cyastat SN so that each person could calculate the return shipping cost. I don't know whether such a procedure would help or complicate the process, especially as to Canadian members. Any suggestions are welcomed--they might be ignored, but your welcome to share your thoughts.

I like Thebes' suggestion about PayPal only. After I investigate shipping costs, I'll come up with a figure, which I expect to be less than $10/bottle. If the pre-paid shipping scenario described above works, the cost for a bottle of Cyastat SN will drop dramatically. The shipping will be the bulk of the expense.

When I'm ready to dispense, I'll post the numbers. Anyone from the forum who sends a self-addressed pre-paid shipping container and makes a PayPal reimbursement, or sends an address and makes a PayPal reimbursement will be sent a bottle.

Best,

Neil

Reg Williamson Record Cleaner

The following is the recipe for 2 oz. of Dupont Elvanol.

Distilled Water (initially) 1.5 cups (400 cc or ml)

Elvanol 2 oz. (.25 cup or 56 gm)

Glycerin 2 tsp (8.5 cc)

Kodak Photo-Flo 200 3-4 drops

Alcohol 3 1/3 tbsp (11tsp or 50 ml)

CYASTAT SN 1/2 tsp (2.5 ml)

1 teaspoon (tsp) = 5 ml (actually 4.929 but close enough)

1 Tablespoon (tbsp.) = 15 ml (ml = cc)

Reg Williamson Record Cleaner Recipe.pdf

Edited by DizRotus
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