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conditioner/surge question


Schu

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what is a person to do...

Listen to the system with the amps into the conditioner and into the wall, do whichever sounds best. I know that sounds very sophomoric, but I wouldn't give up sound quality for protection. I plug mine into the wall and unplug them during a storm, or if away for several days. I've never had any issues doing it this way.

Shakey

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The 5400 is rated at 15 amps max. For your amps you will have to run a higher rated unit, look into the furman line, they are same company as panamax. They have 20 and 30 amp units and even 15 amp models with a 45amp reserve for amplifiers. The only way the panamax protection policy will be honored if it ever has to be used is if all units are ran correctly. If you decide to use an additional line conditioner from them you will be fine. If you go with another brand for the amps or decide to go straight to the wall then I would call panamax and see what module they have available to run your signal lines through to retain the protection policy. No matter what brand you buy always read the small print. Their exclusions are about as bad a a homeowners policy.

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I dont see here where I would need more current???

Maximum Power Output:500W 4 ohms, 250W 8 ohms

Power Output 1% THD:450W 4 ohms, 225W 8 ohms

Minimum Load:3 ohms

Peak Output Current:35 amperes

Frequency Response:+/-3 dB 1.5Hz-70KHz, all loads

THD+N:0.003% 1W, 1KHz, 4 ohms

IMD (CCIF):0.0003%, 1W, 14:15KHz, 4 ohms

Output noise:35uVRMS A-weighted 10Hz-20KHz

Voltage gain:27dB (single ended or balanced input)

Damping factor:>1000

Output Impedance at 100Hz:<8 milliohms

Dynamic Range:121dB

Input Voltage for Max Output:2Vrms

Input connections:Single-ended RCA or balanced XLR

RCA input impedance:100Kohms

Balanced input impedance:200Kohms

Output connections:1-set WBT Nextgen 5-way binding posts

Power On usage:10W

Power Off usage:0.0W

Internally Set Operating Voltages:100-120VAC or 230-240VAC 50/60 Hz

this is of course x2. now you guys got me scared!

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WOW... I just heard back from Bel Canto. you guys are exactly correct, they said DON'T use a conditioner. one other thing is that they recomend to me to leave the units on 24/7!

here is a copy of there eMail:

It’s not IF you absolutely need to use the power conditioner, but we don’t recommend them. I would highly encourage you to try the amps without the Panamax and decide for yourself. Although the specific part of the sound spectrum affected would depend on your system, my opinion is that it can really suck the magic out of the amps. It’s not necessarily a current issue either, more of a speed issue. If the surge protector doesn’t allow the amp(s) to draw the power they need at the exact millisecond it needs it, dynamics are affected.

We recommend leaving the amps on all the time for a couple reasons. First is that they don’t pull much power, so there’s really no reason to be turning them on and off. The second reason is that all amps reach a thermal stability point where they typically sound best. Turning them on and off means that there’s a decent period of warm up and until this is achieved, they won’t sound their best.

thanks for helping to point me in the right direction you guys!!!

peace

Schu

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In my system, I'm using two Tripp-Lite Isobar Ultra surge suppressor/noise filters. One is for the two power amps and the sub (all Class D), and the second one, one a different circuit, is for everything else. That different circuit required running a ground wire between the amps and the receiver to eliminate hum.

The sound seemed a little better with the noise filters in place, but the difference was subtle. What was easier to see was the deeper blacks on the TV. That was an unexpected benefit.

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Well... we're not put on this world to "get it", however I do really appreciate the lead on the surge protector. That was some great information even though it was slightly skewed in the reasoms why... I had no idea.

Thanks again.

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I originally purchased my 5300 to help solve my projector flicker issue. Well 2 years later I learned a lot about balun systems. I have always ran mine packed to the gills and it has never let me down. I am thankful I had it when the house was struck because it could have been worse. I had a back feed issue through network cables that were somehow left unprotected. If your pulling 35amps then furman will be the only thing in their line that could help you. There are other devices out there that work directly with your breaker box to condition power if you want to take that route. Then you can do a dedicated power drop from the box to your amps. That's my next step.

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I originally purchased my 5300 to help solve my projector flicker issue. Well 2 years later I learned a lot about balun systems. I have always ran mine packed to the gills and it has never let me down. I am thankful I had it when the house was struck because it could have been worse. I had a back feed issue through network cables that were somehow left unprotected. If your pulling 35amps then furman will be the only thing in their line that could help you. There are other devices out there that work directly with your breaker box to condition power if you want to take that route. Then you can do a dedicated power drop from the box to your amps. That's my next step.

I am wondering how to meassure what I an getting right at the outlet prior to pluggin anything in... I have a fluke, but I am not sure how to do it.

isn't this the more critical figure in my specifications?

Input Voltage for Max Output:2Vrms

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Peak Output Current:35 amperes

There is your problem.

Well... we're not put on this world to "get it", however I do really appreciate the lead on the surge protector. That was some great information even though it was slightly skewed in the reasoms why... I had no idea.

Thanks again.

I read this thread earlier, and I'm so glad I did!! I've had my APC H15 for a couple of years now, and I've had all of the (many) amps I've owned since then hooked up to it.

After reading this, I checked the specs in the APC manual and its maximum current output is 12 amps. My Rotel amp's peak current output rating is >60 amps. While I've never really thought I was missing anything, I tried plugging the amp directly into a wall outlet, and by golly I did notice a difference immediately!

With that, a big thanks to Schu for starting this thread, and all who made the helpful replies!! B)

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I wonder if you will ever come close to using 35 amps. That is a lot of juice. The amp reading on my console averages 3 amps and almost all of my gerar is on it except for one of the Berhinger amp. During movies and loud LFE scenes it will go to around 8 amp. I think the use of Class D amps is a nice progression in home audio. They are efficient, low distortion and nosie floor, and enable better power management for a system.

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There is a very big difference between peak and continuous ratings. While a peak is a very short instant burst normally lasting only a fraction of a second in a continuous rating the high must be able to be maintained for at least a minimum of 3 hours continuous and non stop.

15 amps continuous is capable of quite a lot and would easily support a very potent system, normally even 2 or 3 potent systems without problem including their peaks unless you are trying to achieve ear bleeding maximum levels, most systems will run at less than 4 - 5 amps continuous.

As for power conditioners as I have said many times before many will limit power peaks however there are also many which do not, test your system and see what works best for you. I did extensive testing and auditioning of conditioners with my system and found what I liked.

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isn't this the more critical figure in my specifications?

Input Voltage for Max Output:2Vrms

No. The only thing this spec tells you is what your input voltage has to be to achieve the rated power of your amps. It is the input sensitivity, has nothing to do with the load on the power grid.
Shakey
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Just to be sure, I've been doing further listening this morning with my amp plugged directly into the wall, and there is no doubt it sounds better than when plugged into the APC...

I am fortunate enough to live in a place where I can crank up my music at any time I want, night or day (and trust me I do B) ). And I can tell you that (especially at higher listening levels) I am hearing faster transients and cleaner/tighter bass, no :pwk_bs: . For sure, the APC was limiting current to my amp to some extent...

Like others have said, depending on what power conditioner and/or amp you own, your mileage may vary. I am sure glad I read this thread and tried my amp plugged directly into the wall outlet...

Thanks again to all who contributed to this thread!!

Rick

Edited by Rick
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Look at your input amperage ratings, not output on your amps. If there isn't one use an online calculator to figure how much it eats. Usually line voltage and consumed wattage( not output of amp) will get you your consumed amperage. My Here is always loss in a system so 35amp out is most likely more in. My Marantz sr7007 consumes 670 watts max at 120 volts. That's only 5.58 amps.

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I just did a day long A/B with my monoblocks plugged directly into two seperat outlets, and them plugged into to high output slots on my panamax 5400m.

Despite what bel canto said, the amps run on wall power were not only much less impressive, they were also buzzing slightly with interference.

On filtered power the sound was crisp and very clean... extremely well defined, spacial and the music twinkled. Bass was very tight and well controlled. More importantly, the floor was black as black can be... dead quite.

On wall power, i got mufled rolled off sound with muzzled and bloated bottom end. For me the choice is clear even though it seems to go against what is commonly taken for grated, even by bel canto themselves.

Edited by Schu
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The Panmax is made to work with HT use. The noise from the amps plugged into the wall directly may be related to both of them fighting for the earth ground. Class D amps are so efficient compared to the other amps that it sounds like a great ideal to run HT, Full range mains with a class D amp. It also makes more power available to the rest of the equipment on the curcuiit. Just my 0.02. :ph34r: Besides, I am getting tired of super heavy gear,lol.

Edited by derrickdj1
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I just did a day long A/B with my monoblocks plugged directly into two seperat outlets, and them plugged into to high output slots on my panamax 5400m.

Despite what bel canto said, the amps run on wall power were not only much less impressive, they were also buzzing slightly with interference.

On filtered power the sound was crisp and very clean... extremely well defined, spacial and the music twinkled. Bass was very tight and well controlled. More importantly, the floor was black as black can be... dead quite.

On wall power, i got mufled rolled off sound with muzzled and bloated bottom end. For me the choice is clear even though it seems to go against what is commonly taken for grated, even by bel canto themselves.

Schu,

If you like it, go for it. It may offer you good piece of mind also. I know when I plugged my REF1000s into a conditioner, it did seem to limit the bass punch. Even though the Bel Canto's are IcePower, mine will dim the lights for an instant when I turn them on, and I have pretty good / clean power.

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