Cut-Throat Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 My new Marchand XM66 Active Crossover arrived in the mail today. This is my first foray into Bi-amping, so I could use some advice and tips. My system is Khorn Bass Bin and tweeters, with Altec 1005b Horns with 288-16K Compression Drivers. I am using Welborne 45 SET amps on the Midrange/Tweeters and Welborne 2a3 Moondogs on the Bass Bin. I have modified Type "A" crossovers. How I hooked this up was to disconnect the Woofer at the Crossover and connect it to the Speaker wire hooked to the Moondogs. The Ouput of the 45 amps were hooked as usual to the rest of the Type "A" Crossover. All in all I like what I am hearing. My system is much more powerful now, with a lot more Bass. I initially had my Welborne 300b amps on the Bass Bin, but I could not attenuate the Bass enough, so I switched to the Lower Powered Moondogs. I did order some Class D amps that have 50 watts per channel for the Bass, but I ordered them with gain controls, so I could turn the bass down. I currently have the Active Crossover set at 400hz. I am getting a bit more hum from the Active Crossover (Not a Ground Loop). I think at low level listening the system may not be as coherent with 2 amps, instead of one. But I may make it easier to switch from Bi-amping to Single amping in the future. Any Comments or Advice on this would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Sounds good, sounds like it sounds good. This is a tough road to go down, I am curious to see how you come out. I have you considered using REW or some other program to take measurements to help you fine tune it. I wish I would have gave the auto eq function a try before giving up, but there will be another time. Good luck to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mboxler Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Hi I assume by connecting to the rest of the Type "A" Crossover, you are referring to the output side of C1? I'm using DIY XM9's...the XM66 was tempting! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 Hi I assume by connecting to the rest of the Type "A" Crossover, you are referring to the output side of C1? I'm using DIY XM9's...the XM66 was tempting! Mike I just left everything as is on the Crossover. I just unhooked the leads from the woofer bin and attached those to the Bass Amplifier. Is this Correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) All in all I like what I am hearing. My system is much more powerful now, with a lot more Bass. I initially had my Welborne 300b amps on the Bass Bin, but I could not attenuate the Bass enough, so I switched to the Lower Powered Moondogs. I did order some Class D amps that have 50 watts per channel for the Bass, but I ordered them with gain controls, so I could turn the bass down. I currently have the Active Crossover set at 400hz. I am getting a bit more hum from the Active Crossover (Not a Ground Loop). I think at low level listening the system may not be as coherent with 2 amps, instead of one. But I may make it easier to switch from Bi-amping to Single amping in the future. Any Comments or Advice on this would be appreciated. Remember that you need 4.4 ms delay on fhe midrange and 6 ms elay on the tweeter relative to the bass bin (http://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/132275-i-finally-got-around-to-triamping-my-k-horns/page-2?hl=triamp). If you have delay adjustability on the Marchand, try it. EDIT: After looking at your crossover, I now understand why you didn't reply - you don't really have delay available in that unit. If you can try out a digital unit, you can try the suggested delays, which will likely be very close to the ones you need due to the path length of your horns/drivers, which are probably very similar to the Khorn design. I'd actually try out a 2-in, 6-out active digital, then tri-amp so that you can set the correct delays for all three drivers in each speaker. The results will speak for themselves. Since you probably now have about 2x-4x more power available from your amplifier(s) to your drivers now that you're bi-amping, I'd also recommend setting the amplifier output taps to 4 ohms or whatever the lowest setting might be. That way, you are perhaps minimizing the EQ problems due to high output impedance of both your tube-type amplifiers. If you have to re-EQ the system if you try using low impedance (e.g., 4-ohm taps), that's telling you something.: you may be listening to amplifiers that are being loaded by the speaker cables and the horns/drivers/nearby room acoustic reflections. Chris Edited October 31, 2013 by Cask05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBPK402 Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Don't you still have to have a crossover on the sub? Wouldn't the amp be sending full bandwidth to the sub instead of a select frequency range? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 Don't you still have to have a crossover on the sub? Wouldn't the amp be sending full bandwidth to the sub instead of a select frequency range? By the "sub", I am assuming that you mean the Khorn Bass Bin Woofer?.......If so, the answer is no. I have the leads from the Woofer hooked directly to the Output of the Bass Amplifier. The Active Crossover is only sending the Lower Frequencies to the Bass Amplifier. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBPK402 Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Don't you still have to have a crossover on the sub? Wouldn't the amp be sending full bandwidth to the sub instead of a select frequency range? By the "sub", I am assuming that you mean the Khorn Bass Bin Woofer?.......If so, the answer is no. I have the leads from the Woofer hooked directly to the Output of the Bass Amplifier. The Active Crossover is only sending the Lower Frequencies to the Bass Amplifier. Got it... I missed the active crossover bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mboxler Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 The Marchand is sending <400 hz frequencies (24 dB slope) to your bass amp, driving your K-33's. It's sending >400 hz frequencies (24 dB slope as well) to your other amp. The 13 uf (?) capacitor in the crossover will filter frequencies >400 hz at a 6 db slope. The two slopes will not summ very well, I would think. That's why you need to bypass the C1 capacitor, as it is ruining what the XM66 has already done correctly. Hope that makes sense. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sootshe Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 I'm not familiar with the Marchand crossover you are using, but when you biamp don't you just connect the low frequency speaker to the low frequency outputs on the electronic crossover & the high frequency speaker to the high frequency outputs on the electronic crossover? I don't understand why you are still connecting the passive crossover into the system. Regards, John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 I'm not familiar with the Marchand crossover you are using, but when you biamp don't you just connect the low frequency speaker to the low frequency outputs on the electronic crossover & the high frequency speaker to the high frequency outputs on the electronic crossover? I don't understand why you are still connecting the passive crossover into the system. Regards, John The Active Crossover is only 2 Way. Splits Lows and Highs. I still need a Passive for the Crossover point between the Midrange and Tweeter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) The Marchand is sending <400 hz frequencies (24 dB slope) to your bass amp, driving your K-33's. It's sending >400 hz frequencies (24 dB slope as well) to your other amp. The 13 uf (?) capacitor in the crossover will filter frequencies >400 hz at a 6 db slope. The two slopes will not summ very well, I would think. That's why you need to bypass the C1 capacitor, as it is ruining what the XM66 has already done correctly. Hope that makes sense. Mike You may very well be correct. That is why I am asking. Maybe I should just build a simple 2 way Crossover to use for this instead? Actually I don't have the 13uf Cap, because I have different Mid Range Horn. I use a 6.8uf Cap instead. Could I just remove the Cap entirely? And then I am attenuating the Midrange with the Autoformer also. So, then I am wondering how much attenuation should the midrange horn be when only using the passive network with the tweeter? I am currently 6db down on the midrange. So, I may need to make some adjustments there as well?? Edited October 31, 2013 by Cut-Throat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mboxler Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Wow! What's the impedance of your 288-16K drivers? Must be 32 ohms for such a small cap. If it is easier, you could remove the cap and replace it with a wire. Otherwise, I'll try to find a Type A schematic and go from there. You could also buy a pair of AP15-6000T crossovers from ALKENG.COM for $380.00 plus shipping, although the swamping resistor value might need to be adjusted if it's a 32 ohm driver). I'm using the new-for-me ES5800T (that's mine in the picture). Let me know how I can help (or confuse). Happy to do so. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) You could also buy a pair of AP15-6000T crossovers from ALKENG.COM for $380.00 plus shipping... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Processor-Crossover-digital-ASHLY-Protea-3-24CL-/190945441894?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_210&hash=item2c753c3866 You can get an entire digital processor of some quality for that price, and they're easy to setup, too. It just takes a few minutes: if you don't like what you're hearing, you can change it--right now. Chris Edited October 31, 2013 by Cask05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) Wow! What's the impedance of your 288-16K drivers? Must be 32 ohms for such a small cap. If it is easier, you could remove the cap and replace it with a wire. Otherwise, I'll try to find a Type A schematic and go from there. You could also buy a pair of AP15-6000T crossovers from ALKENG.COM for $380.00 plus shipping, although the swamping resistor value might need to be adjusted if it's a 32 ohm driver). I'm using the new-for-me ES5800T (that's mine in the picture). Let me know how I can help (or confuse). Happy to do so. Mike Well, as you attenuate the very efficient Midrange you increase the impedance. So my 6db down increases the impedance to 64 ohms. But, seeing how the woofer is now out of the equation, I may not need to attenuate it this much any more. Those are the things that I am pondering. Edited October 31, 2013 by Cut-Throat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 All in all I like what I am hearing. My system is much more powerful now, with a lot more Bass. I initially had my Welborne 300b amps on the Bass Bin, but I could not attenuate the Bass enough, so I switched to the Lower Powered Moondogs. I did order some Class D amps that have 50 watts per channel for the Bass, but I ordered them with gain controls, so I could turn the bass down. I currently have the Active Crossover set at 400hz. I am getting a bit more hum from the Active Crossover (Not a Ground Loop). I think at low level listening the system may not be as coherent with 2 amps, instead of one. But I may make it easier to switch from Bi-amping to Single amping in the future. Any Comments or Advice on this would be appreciated. Remember that you need 4.4 ms delay on fhe midrange and 6 ms elay on the tweeter relative to the bass bin (http://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/132275-i-finally-got-around-to-triamping-my-k-horns/page-2?hl=triamp). If you have delay adjustability on the Marchand, try it. Chris This is good to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Another idea, I don't know high your Altec combo goes. But you could eq the Altec combo up to 16,000 and just run a 2 way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 Another idea, I don't know high your Altec combo goes. But you could eq the Altec combo up to 16,000 and just run a 2 way. Yes, a good idea, and I tried this before and it just didn't sound as good to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 "But you could eq the Altec combo up to 16,000 and just run a 2 way. " The multicell will finger real hard above about 6Khz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 "But you could eq the Altec combo up to 16,000 and just run a 2 way. " The multicell will finger real hard above about 6Khz Ah, wasn't to sure on the frequency range of the Altec gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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