Best Crossovers and Other Upgrades for Belles Driven by 2 Watt

[Deang]

I wondered about what you ended up doing.

[Guest David H]

ALK Universal or Cornscala-wall universal crossover.

Both sound great

Al told me he didn't like low power amps driving Klipsch speakers and that I should replace my amp with one with more power. Lol.

Fair enough.

So get a bigger amp then get universals.

[greg928gts]

I've sold my beloved Cornwalls and replaced them with Klipsch Belles. These speakers are driven, some of the time, by my 2 watt per channel Yamamoto A08-S amp which uses EML 45 tubes.

My Cornwalls were upgraded with Bob Crites CT-125 tweeters and Bob's crossovers.

Now I'm considering upgrading the Belles and would like recommendations from those with more Klipsch Belle or crossover experience on what would sound best with these speakers for low power tube amps (I sometimes run my 16 WPC 211 Set Amps or 16 WPC EL-84 tube amp)?

TIA,

Wb

Upgrading crossover components or changing out the crossovers is a good idea, but really it's the little midrange horn in the Belle that needs the most attention, imo.

Greg

[Axz Hout]

x

[greg928gts]

it's the little midrange horn in the Belle that needs the most attention, imo.

Greg

I built my own Belle bass bins and used an EV HR90 midrange horn. The larger horn loads the room better IMHO. chris

That looks like it should sound very good.

Greg

[NOSValves]

Sorry wolfbane, I didn't mean to hijack your thread. If you spend any amount of time around here, you'll quickly see we're a lot like family. There's normally a lot of private sharing, and it's normal for threads to go off on tangents. There's squabbling too - sometimes we poke each other in the eye, both deliberately and by accident.

Welcome to the forum!

Don't kid yourself Dean when I poke you in the eye its always on purpose

[NOSValves]

Before you decide on crossovers it would be wise to map out your long term plan for the Belle's so you don't end up buying something just to end up buying again.

If you plan to leave the rest of the speakers original or close to it then I can say without a doubt buy a set of simple Type A or Type AA crossovers with the best OIL caps you can afford. I traded for a set of Belles a few weeks ago that came with a set of Type A networks with V-CAP OIMP oil caps in them built by the Nutcase Dean Wescott and they sound exceptionally good! The added benefit to the low watt user is not much energy wasted in the crossover network with these simple designs. The combination is very musical!

Now if you plan to go hog wild changing mid horns and drivers then the path should be completely different. My main speakers in my shop I utilize a Dean built Super AA along with a ALK transformer based tweeter attentuator and can play with every horn driver combination to my hearts content. These crossovers absolutely perform and sound like MUSIC!

I think my best motto in this arena is....When it comes to audio remember what is technically better is almost never musically better. To me this is about music and its natural sounding reproduction.

Edited November 15, 2013 by NOSValves

[Axz Hout]

x

[Deang]

Nicely done Craig.

[Wolfbane]

Now I'm considering upgrading the Belles

What crossovers and driver types do your Belle speakers have? Some part changes came from driver updates (old ones no longer available) IE when were they born?. chris

They are currently as original from the factory (1982) with the ratty Type AB crossovers which I know have to go. I've got a pair of Type A/4500 Crites, currently not installed, as I would need to update the tweeters to run these. These speakers sound good as is with my low powered tube amps but not as good as the modified Cornwalls they replaced.

[Wolfbane]

Before you decide on crossovers it would be wise to map out your long term plan for the Belle's so you don't end up buying something just to end up buying again.

Now if you plan to go hog wild changing mid horns and drivers then the path should be completely different. My main speakers in my shop I utilize a Dean built Super AA along with a ALK transformer based tweeter attentuator and can play with every horn driver combination to my hearts content. These crossovers absolutely perform and sound like MUSIC!

I think my best motto in this arena is....When it comes to audio remember what is technically better is almost never musically better. To me this is about music and its natural sounding reproduction.

I'm not one to go hog wild but prefer to incrementally change things one piece at a time. I'm thinking tweeters first, than crossovers, than maybe change out or upgrade the mids last if required.

[PrestonTom]

As mentioned above, starting out with an overall plan is a good idea.

I would strongly encourage you to consider a Klipsch K-510 horn (do a search). If you want to go hog wild (which I always encourage) then this can be the foundation for a two-way system with an electronic crossover (allows for time alignment). I think one of the members has already tried a K-510 in a Belle cabinet (search the forum some more). At this point I will stop spending your money.

In either case, good luck and enjoy them.

[NOSValves]

we entered the technically better land fast.....

[PrestonTom]

Technically better, yes, but it does not stop there.

I have owned Klispchorns, La Scalas, Heresys, and Cornwalls. In my own experience replacing old caps will give some improvement. Using fancy caps will further that improvement by a fairly small amount.

On the other hand, upgrading the horns will give huge improvements. Using electronic crossovers will allow bi-amping (modest improvement) and time alignment (moderate improvement).

Put a Klipsch K-510 horn (or even an Electrovoice HP 640 horn) on top of La Scala or a Heresy. Then dial in an electronic crossover (steep filters, time alignment etc). The results sound good. They sound very good. Gee, I guess "technical solutions" can give good results (although they lack "mystique" and a huge bank account).

[Wolfbane]

I should add here: no external parts as anything like that would not meet with the WAF seal of approval. The Cornwalls are out and the Belles in because they are 'not as ugly' in the eyes of the three woman living here with me.

[SonicSeeker]

I should add here: no external parts as anything like that would not meet with the WAF seal of approval. The Cornwalls are out and the Belles in because they are 'not as ugly' in the eyes of the three woman living here with me.

I am right there with you my friend.

[Deang]

Technically better, yes, but it does not stop there.

I have owned Klispchorns, La Scalas, Heresys, and Cornwalls. In my own experience replacing old caps will give some improvement. Using fancy caps will further that improvement by a fairly small amount.

On the other hand, upgrading the horns will give huge improvements. Using electronic crossovers will allow bi-amping (modest improvement) and time alignment (moderate improvement).

Put a Klipsch K-510 horn (or even an Electrovoice HP 640 horn) on top of La Scala or a Heresy. Then dial in an electronic crossover (steep filters, time alignment etc). The results sound good. They sound very good. Gee, I guess "technical solutions" can give good results (although they lack "mystique" and a huge bank account).

I've done all of those things too, but came to a different conclusion. I'm not alone, many others are with me on this as well.

Time alignment was barely perceivable -- no one in my household could even hear the difference, even when I told them when I was turning it on, and turning it off. I could hear it, but believe the difference/improvement is overstated. I of course completely agree with you about the horn. Obviously a larger horn and bigger driver is going to give you more performance gains than changing out capacitors, as one would expect. However, I don't understand your last statement. A pair of K-510s, multiple amplifiers, and a quality electronic crossover will have a much bigger impact on the bank account then a good set of passives. I also don't know what you mean by "fancy cap". Film and foil capacitors are not "fancy". They cost more due to the manner of their construction, which translates into better performance (measurably and audibly). Considering your position in this area, I'm curious what "fancy" capacitors you have tried, or any experience you've had with any of the alternative after-market networks that employ them.

[greg928gts]

To me this is about music and its natural sounding reproduction.

I couldn't agree more Craig!

I've found that what people consider 'natural sounding reproduction' varies wildly from person to person, which I suppose is why there are so many choices out there for equipment. It IS a subjective hobby.

Greg

[greg928gts]

Time alignment was barely perceivable -- no one in my household could even hear the difference, even when I told them when I was turning it on, and turning it off. I could hear it, but believe the difference/improvement is overstated. I of course completely agree with you about the horn.

Sounds like this was done with electronic time alignment. Have you ever tried the 'analogue' version of moving the mid and tweeter back to see if that made a more noticeable difference? Harder to switch between the two.

I also tried the electronic time alignment on my Khorns and could not hear a noticeable difference in or out.

Greg

[Deang]

Never tried physically moving the drivers -- Dennis tried to get me to do that. Problem is, I can be a bit lazy, especially if everything is sounding really good just the way it is.