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nico boom

The rebirth of the University Classics

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sorry to ask and I do wish to say that I know nothing about these speakers - why all the  hype about the University Classic -

 

 

Back in the Golden Era, when 20 Watts was considered "a lot of power", there were many viable horn loudspeaker designs. I haven't heard most of them, so I cannot comment from personal experience about their sound quality, but I have read reports that many of them sounded very good indeed -- perhaps even better than the Klipschorn. And the University Classic is often mentioned as one of the finer designs.

 

So why did the Klipschorn survive and all of the others disappear? My opinion, and it is only my opinion, is that those other horn loudspeakers were just plain ugly. In fact, the only horn speakers that appear as "beautiful" to me are the top-line Klipschorn, and the JBL Paragon. I do not know why the Paragon disappeared, and even the Klipschorn is a rare item nowadays.

 

Ah, you say, but doesn't sound quality trump appearance? Well, just consider how often WAF is discussed right here in the Forums.

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Just a few more "cents worth" acking a lot of what's here. Decided to respond because maybe a few of us have posed Randyh's question.

Disclaimer: Haven't seen let alone heard one ever.

Spent a lot of time trying to answer the question, but some of "my stuff" has disappeared from Imageshack and another forum containing the rest is now offline.

What I can say is that ("what Moray said"), with the C15W's that are supposed to be in there (series coils), the response sims "gawdawfulflat" from 60 to 800Hz. I bet I've tried simming 45 drivers if not 60 -- currently-available drivers -- nothing does that. Flat-flat with one deep & narrow notch.

Second, most "horns" (read: as constituted to fit in somebody's house and Blend And do "bass" w/o EQ) have a lovely-efficient half-wave mode and a lesser quarter-wave amplitude (spl). Say that they're "compromised" or that their designers have made tradeoffs about response, mouth size, rolloff slopes, EQ-decisions, space, blah blah.

Mr. Abe Cohen's S-8 Classics with his C15W's, _also_ have the same "gawdawfulflat" _efficiency_ over their passband. No lame quarterwave and strong halfwave (with extraordinarily lame aka belly between)--no--hornresp efficiency is flat-flat with one deep/narrow notch. That was a lesson for me--that it's possible to make a system of an overall-reduced efficiency and yet still be plenty-suitable to call "high-efficiency" (teens of percent, IIRC, but flat teens of percent).

Third, Z sims "gawdawfulflat" -- I wanna say 8 +/- a couple/three ohms from say 20Hz to 7kHz (C15W series coils).

The sum of _that_ is why I quit my own personal Univ S-8 Classic-quest--check-that--it won't die, I'll just give-up hunting C15W's and choose something one day. No, what Abe did with that driver in that horn made me feel like a schoolkid when I first saw the sims after all my flailing-about. It both knocked the wind out of me and raised the bar of what was possible and I'm in some sort of debt to him for that.

Thanks Moray for updating some local links and for general Moray-type-instigating and enabling :)

PS As I remember from my quest, a guy can do worse than sticking a 15B or K33 in one but neither seemed worth it. That was some (?) bunch of years ago, too, so maybe there exist some schmancy drivers now that didn't fill the bill then.

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grindstone: did you ever run T/S numbers on your C15W? Another driver I have had simulations done on is the Altec 515 and the 415 (I think)in a laScala they looked superb and in a Khorn, they extended farther than other applicants for the job might be worth looking at for the University Classic. Looks like one can expect very solid 50 Hz with this horn and can give the sub duties to a smaller tapped horn for that last octave. Smaller than a Jensen Aristocrat a little larger than a Khorn and most of all easy to build and easy to match up to a mid horn or to use as a two way. Thanks for your post. Look forward to more interesting info about this horn at this location. Best regards Moray James.

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I believe Nico crosses his over a 1K +

 

That's one of the reasons I want to build this cabinet. The original crossover was made for 350 and 700Hz.

 

Bruce

 

You are correct, mine are set for 1K first order rolloff. The Beyma CP750Ti coupled to the EV940 takes over from there with 2nd order rolloff.

Apart from a correction on 200Hz [ -1,2Db] and a gentle boost from 50Hz  to 25Hz of 3Db plus a time-delay of 3,14 on the woofer, the system needs no corrections and sound very natural in our livingroom.

Particularly voices are more lifelike and smoother than with the Khorn.

 

After going two-way, I first had the impression that I lost some dynamics but what I heard was that the harshness had gone.

 

As mentioned before, my wife has developed a good hearing after singing in a choir for years, plus we have friends who come over regularly to visit and listen to some music and I always value their opnions.

With one exception, they all think the Classics are the best sounding speakers they've heard here [ beeing a Klipsch-fan to the bone, that single one pretends he's still mad at me for putting the Khorns in storage...].

 

I think that when you listen to the difference between a big two- way and a big three-way system that you know why Klipsch put so much efford in making the Jubilee.

Make no mistake; I still love the Khorns but in a somehat smaller room the Classics simply perform better.

 

Nico

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Good point, as-always, that you make, Moray. Yeah, limited sample-size. I remember GM said they changed the Z of the things (and dcr) when amps became less-thermionic aka more-sand-ey. I don't know what moved/how-far/when during the course of manufacture with all that was happening during "the life of the part" but it amounted to a Q change. I forgot what Dennis posted, too, but I remember he weighed-in at-least once to say something about that, too. All I can do on any of that is type of bunch of characters of speculation.

TS--yeah I have that somewhere but it'll take me (tax-week!) until after the weekend at-least to root-it-out of the backups. Well, that's short for posting but the truth is that I never "sub-classifed" stuff really well when I made backups. I know I have to look through a few "university_stuff_n_of_m" folders to get that. If you're a unix-person at-all, the many revs of tar, well, you'll know and smile with me :)

K33 will get a guy 10Hz lower bottom at the cost of some-(?)-two-hundred-Hz lower "top" (Fhm).

Moray -- I owe ya the moon and the stars for all you've given for all these years on all these boards -- PM me with anything you want and I'll get it done if it can be done. May your health be Perfect and may your days be Better!

:)

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Nico: i expect that the added punch that you hear from a Khorn has more to do with the inherent rigidity of the cabinet and all of its internal panels. I think that if you ad a horizontal brace or two (and I would go with two) braces that the punch factor would swing back to the Classic horn. There are other adjustments which could be made to this horn. I will see if I can try to draw some people with modeloing experience to see if some fine tuning can be made and also to see if we can find some modern day drop in or superior replacements for the University woofer. I have to admit that every time I look at this horn I want tto build a pir and I have to convince myself that I must be downsizing but still I would love to hear a pair and your accounts make them so very hare to resist especially given your ability to directly compare to the Khorn a speaker I just never had the corners for. Thanks for the post. Best regards Moray James.

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Thanks Moray as you know I have my late Dad's EN-CB's and the DIY Klipschorn he made in the early 1960's with the drivers etc from a EN-B  wow I had no idea how much those 15" woofer are selling for.  Great thread I hope this summer to rebuild Pop's old cabinets or build a Cornscala cabinets for them as I just don't have room and the wife does not like the looks of my EN-CB until I remodel my garage for my music room  :-)

Louis

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... a little larger than a Khorn
While it's .25" wider than a Khorn, the Classic is shorter and shallower. The Khorn does have the advantage of tucking into a corner and looking smaller.

 

I like the looks of the Classic, although I would make it simpler and leave the woofer hidden (Nico, I like what you did with the plexi, but would prefer a veneer). Yes, there must be a new driver that would work well in this cabinet, although I don't really think you will get lower bass than the Khorn. I actually like the bass in my LS, so a bit lower will still be a good thing.

 

I like what Nico has done in trimming off the top at the back and around the bottom. It does make them look a bit smaller than just a big box.

 

Bruce

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Nico,

 

I respect the opinion of Bruce, aka Marvel, regarding the plexi vs. veneer, but I vote for the plexi.

 

The project is most interesting.  Thank you for sharing it.

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Just magnificent work, love the lexan panel and coupling those EV horns was masterful. 

 

 

This wife, does she have a sister? 

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Just wonderful Nico, the build & the reconnect with your dad. Thanks to all who've posted I just learned a ton on a topic I didn't know existed.

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Thank you all for your comments.

 

As for the plexi; that idea came from the fact that the braces for the wooferpanel [ on the sidewalls] had been chosen too thin. Also the seal was not airtight and I thought about how to make a proper sealing wooferpanel. The C15W woofer in my opinion is worth to be seen, so the plexi provided an answer to both issues.

 

As for my wife; she has two sisters.......both married already. :lol:

 

The succesfull marriage of the EV horn with the 2 inch beyma driver inside the horn-mouth is plain luck and started as a experiment.

 

We're in the process of buying another house, you can guess what one of our wishes is regarding a livingroom or separate listening area....

These are for our boys when they become 16 years old, but mom and dad are going to have some fun with those in the mean time.

[see pic].

 

Marvel; with the same amount of bass-boost [ gently going to +3Db from 50 to 25Hz] the Classics go deeper than the Khorns. The La Scala's don't even come close. With the LS's and Khorns I always used one or two subs to reach deep; I sold them both after starting to use the Classics in the living.

post-33317-0-24160000-1428422889_thumb.j

post-33317-0-79640000-1428422981_thumb.j

Edited by nico boom

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Just thought I'd post some more pics, as this thread is growing. 

In reply to Moray's question about wiring the two voicecoils I replied that mine are wired in parallel.

If you happen to have a heavy poweramp, hum can be a issue so you can wire them in series to double the impedance and reduce the amp's output; worked for me with a Bryston 4B hooked to the woofers.

 

Nico

post-33317-0-45120000-1428512887_thumb.j

post-33317-0-00280000-1428512904_thumb.j

post-33317-0-57640000-1428512916_thumb.j

post-33317-0-57160000-1428512997_thumb.j

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Nico, this was a moving thread.  My old man has been gone a looong time but it took me a looong time to be able to finish your threads because I had built something with my old man the summer before he checked-out.  And man we were at each-other and hard!

:)  

But it wasn't young-guy vs. old-guy-stuff--not at-all.

It was...umkay, here's this _SAME_ guy that MADE me have Every- (single-da**ed-) thing square and plumb and level and cross-chalk-lined and double-checked on atomic clocks for my whole life--here's this Same-Guy saying "ah I don't buy green bananas anymore--Nail it!"
.
.
.
(that'd be ellipses "for-effect" to try to say how it Rocked-me at the time).  

Not-so-much-audio, I know.  And I know I'm _quite_new_ here, but I've grokked the support that the lifers on this board can throw-out in time of need--remarkable group, this--well, when you're not engaged in arguing the same arguments that Everyone (except us newbies) _knows_ to Not Even Bring-Up :)

Nico, thanks for spilling the "non-speaker" bits, too.  You got to have an experience that not everyone gets.  About all I can muster is "Salute!"

Thanks must also go to our forum sponsor, however "ill-timed" on my part.  I just can't say enough about Klipsch which supports all this effluvium with the heavy-lifting of forum-management.  Klipsch still "gets" that there's a "human bit" in audio -- and they foster a space for it to "just be" -- whoda-thunk?  

:)

THANKS.  
 

Customers for life?  Oh yeah. 

 

 

 

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