Cornwall IIs news

[Lemon string]

Hey Muel, I've recently seen the fastrac horns mentioned. Im fairly certain that they can be put into the II's. Have you heard them? Im real curious if they would make a noticeable difference.

[rhing]

Congratulations on your Cornwall IIs. After I purchased my Forte IIs, I contacted Bob Crites about two months later for his Titanium tweeter diaphragms, crossover cap upgrade kit and new internal wiring for my speakers. I also installed better Pomona 3770 Gold-plated Copper 5-way binding posts. To my ears, I feel like I have retained the original character of the Forte IIs while making refinements that make these speakers really high end. I may opt for the Titanium midrange diaphragms from Klipsch that many have raved about as well.

As far as amps go, good amps will sound good with Klipsch Heritage speakers--tubes or solid state. Bad amps won't sound good, because the high sensitivity of Klipsch speakers will expose them, flaws and all. I have an Audio Research phono stage, an Audio Research line stage and a restored/modified Dynakit Stereo 35 6BQ5/EL84 amp that sound great through my Forte IIs, but lately I've been having fun with a $6 15 watt chip amp that I've upgraded with better components that beats a modified Adcom GFA-535 a friend donated to me. The little 15 watt amp still does not sound as good as my tube amp setup, but it isn't too far behind either. A friend of mine is bringing his 300B SET monoblocks over to have a shootout with the chip amp and my tube amps. this will be fun.

[Lemon string]

Hmmmmm at $6 what the heck..... Pass on the info sounds like fun. How did you modify it? Yeah the adcom is old and basically it was a donation as well. I just have to figure out what I move to next. As i said earlier Im a fan of Mr. Pass but even on the used market his stuff is a bit out of my price range probably. Ive had my eye on a couple emotive mono blocks in my area. I've been happy with my umc-1 from them.

[jason str]

I have an Adcom GFA 5500 that i have used on a few sets of speakers including my Chorus II's and La Scala"s.

There is no noise at all coming from the amp and am very happy with the sound quality.

I have also had many Adcom preamps, all have had issues including hiss from the speakers with the volume all the way down.

Currently running a NAD preamp with the Adcom and vey happy with the pairing.

[muel]

Hey Muel, I've recently seen the fastrac horns mentioned. Im fairly certain that they can be put into the II's. Have you heard them? Im real curious if they would make a noticeable difference.

Yes I have and Yes they do!!! To my ears they are a big improvement!

[Heritage_Head]

I run a sherbourn ss amp on my corns and they sound really really good. Im sure a better amp would give even better results. I think if the source is good and the amp is good quality its going to come out pretty good imo. I mean no set up is perfect of course we can always upgrade something

[Deang]

When you combine a high output amp with a lot of gain, to an efficient speaker - you get noise. The diaphragms are probably fine. Damaged drivers either don't work or sound so bad you can't stand to listen to them.

The stock C II crossover is awful. It needs to be addressed, but I agree with Shakey, so does that amp - it's just not a very good sonic match with horns.

Think of a crossover the same way you think of tone controls. The different type slopes control the total amount of energy seen by each driver, and changing those slopes (and alignment type) has profound effects on the sonic signature of the loudspeaker.

If you were to compare a Klipsch rebuild by Michael Crites (sorry Bob, but I think it's time everyone knows you're pretty much down to drinking coffee, taking calls, and giving that Hemi a daily workout) to one of Al's simpler designs, you would notice the following:

The Klipsch rebuild would allow the speaker to open up very fast, it would sound very crisp, and the midrange horn would dominate the sonic signature. That is, a very strong midrange presence with some bite. With your Adcom, it will come off a little harsh, and if you listen loud, listener fatigue will settle in pretty quick.

Al's "CornScala-wall" by comparison, wouldn't seem quite as efficient (you would need a wee bit more on the volume control to get the same effect), the loudspeaker overall would sound a little more laid back and smoother, and the midrange would sound more balanced in relationship to the other drivers. His crossover also allows you to adjust the midrange to suit your personal taste.

So how to choose? They are priced about the same I think. You are choosing between a fast, punchy and very dynamic sound and something that's very open, more relaxed sounding, and velvety smooth.

I think you should do both. Recap your originals, which is not much money at all, and buy Al's later.

Start saving for a low powered tubed integrated amplifier. Seriously, you don't need a 200 wpc noisemaker. My last 555 was almost 10 years ago, and even after I changed out the big electrolytics in the power supply and a couple of other the things, my little Scott 299B with 22 wpc ran circles around it.

If you change out the horn, which is definitely a good thing, I'm not sure that you will be able to use the stock network without some modification (I don't know if the horn requires additional attenuation).

Edited November 25, 2013 by DeanG

[derrickdj1]

I have to agree with Schu and Srappydue that the CW can sound good with SS. As to what is Hi Fi or age of the amp, a good vintage amp can sounds just as good as the new stuff. I have a Yamaha M 80 and Mac 1700 that sound just as nice as my new gear. I have compared the SQ to newer MC's and other costlier amps and my opinion still stands. My Yamaha M 80 is dead silent as far as hiss or hum and it was made in the early 80's. I think a lot just depends on if you like the tube sound. My tube gear is slightly different than SS but, I can't really say that one is better than the next. Blind listening test have proven that high dollar amps don't sound different even to audiophiles on more than one occassion.

[Lemon string]

Dean, I have to say that is great advice on how to approach the crossover! I think I'll do that...... buy the rebuild kit from crites to start with and follow with a ALK design and get to hear both.

[rhing]

Hmmmmm at $6 what the heck..... Pass on the info sounds like fun. How did you modify it? Yeah the adcom is old and basically it was a donation as well. I just have to figure out what I move to next. As i said earlier Im a fan of Mr. Pass but even on the used market his stuff is a bit out of my price range probably. Ive had my eye on a couple emotive mono blocks in my area. I've been happy with my umc-1 from them.

You can read about the STM TDA7297 Class AB chip amp module on this Klipsch forum thread:

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/144613-chip-amps/?p=1664366

I have chronicled my mods/upgrades on that thread. I originally found out about this amp through the diyAudio.com forum:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/231988-what-heck-its-less-than-lunch.html

What caught my attention in the diyAudio forum thread was that the guy who started the thread owns a pair of La Scalas.

If you search the auction Web site using "tda7297f," you will find several listings for this amp module. I bought mine from the seller "homemart.usa" who ironically is located in Hong Kong, but there are others. You will need a laptop-type power supply capable of 12V and 2A output. The amp can take up to 18V, but try to keep it less than 16V and keep the current output above 2A. The amp will take a higher current of 5A to 8A. The DC power input jack is a 2.1mm x 5.5mm DC power jack. With upgrading the input capacitors and the power supply cap, anyone with high sensitivity speakers like Cornwalls can get a rich full sound with deep bass.

This is not a Class D amp, but a Class AB chip amp that has hardly anything in the signal path, but the two input caps. A friend in another part of the country who also owns Forte IIs tried this amp out and he is using this as his main amp as he channels his funds to upgrading his Forte II crossovers. When he completed some simple upgrades, he and his wife stayed up until 3 AM listening to music one Saturday evening. She's a musician with perfect pitch and she told me the tonality of this amp was great with excellent bass response. With a decent power supply, the amp is dead silent, so noise is not a factor. I have friends here in the Bay Area with Klipschorns and Altec Lansing Model 19s that I will audition with this little amp. I was skeptical about this amp myself when I first read about it, but I've wasted $6 on bad lunches and audio parts. It's a great way to enjoy your new Cornwalls with quality amplification without breaking the bank.

Edited November 25, 2013 by rhing

[Shakeydeal]

Blind listening test have proven that high dollar amps don't sound different even to audiophiles on more than one occassion

This is a slippery slope and one fraught with misery. It is the long term enjoyment of a component that means the most to me. Not the frustration and annoyance of listening to 2 minute snippets of a song and switching cables back and forth, a sure recipe for disaster.

That said, I just replaced a 150 watt tube amplifier with a 40 watt tube amplifier and the difference (and improvement) was noticeable within the first few minutes of listening.

Amplifiers sound different from one another. Period. I'm not saying that a ten thousand dollar amplifier will beat a two thousand dollar amplifier in every instance. That is for the buyer to decide. But even if they sound similar, one of them is going to sound better.

I am not throwing rocks or pointing fingers here. But I have found that most of the time people who make the above quoted claim, either haven't spent any time with the good stuff, or can't (or chose not to) afford it. It's ok. I have heard equipment that I know sounds better than what I have, but I don't stick my head in the sand and deny it.

Shakey

Edited November 25, 2013 by Shakeydeal

[philly0116]

I can vouch for Crites parts. They sound great. I have ran my CW1's on a Marantz 2265, Marantz Monoblocks, and a Hafler DH-200. The only amp I ever noticed a hum with was the Monoblocks. Not sure why that was, I suspect the monoblocks needed new caps, I dont know though. I really enjoy the CW1's on the DH-200. Its a clean 100wpc, (126wpc at bench test), and its a very warm, vintage sound. I know the Hafler is not what some would consider worthy but for me its great. I cant speak for the tube amps. I know they are TYPICALLY high $$ and low power which are 2 things Im not really interested in but A LOT of people are. My opinion is more power equals more low end. I know Cornwalls are very efficient but there is a point with more power that they seem to "open up" and really jam. They sounded great with the Marantz 2265 at 65wpc but with the 100+ wpc....we got a party now. Thats my opinion, with my ears and my mid grade equipment.

[Deang]

I like a post filled with qualifiers. People who are still into jamming out need at least 100 wpc

I had a great phone call with Bob the other day. We can usually make it a good a half hour before something like this happens (I will be paraphrasing).

Bob: "You think we don't listen, but we do. We just do it right. The only way to know if there is any real difference between two things is to compare them against each other instantaneously."

Dean: "That's the worst way to do it. The ear/brain mechanism needs time to process the information."

Bob: "You can listen as long as you want before the switch is flipped."

Dean: '"So, I have to "remember" what I just heard. Ever read Deneen's comments about that, it's on my website."'

Bob: "I made it through a couple sentences. It was about all I could take."

Dean: "Mark makes good points, they just can't be dismissed. People aren't imagining all of these differences. Placebo effect is powerful but it's not all powerful."

Bob: "Any differences that are different enough to matter would be noticed right away. Really, any difference at all would be noticed."

Dean: "Not with that method they won't. Subtle differences won't be detected, and those subtleties and nuances in the sound are important. They add up, and there is an accumulative effect that critical listeners can detect in music they've heard a thousand times. What may seem like small, insignificant things to you, are a pretty big deal to people that listen like I do."

Bob: "You mean sitting in a chair, in the middle of the room - with your head in a vise? If I have to listen like that I don't think I'd be listening to music anymore."

Dean: "I'm listening to the song, and everything in the song that makes it a song. That's my point, people listen differently, I don't listen like you do, and your little switch just detracts and distracts from my ability to notice things. Sometimes those differences are pretty obvious - but you say you can't hear any difference at all. Why is that?

Bob: "I believe you believe you're hearing them, but they aren't there. My spectrum analyzer says they aren't there, and my ears say the same thing.

Dean: "I don't think a handful of measurements can account for everything a person is capable of hearing - we're just not there yet."

Bob: "Maybe, not sure."

Dean: "I hear this stuff pretty easy in my room, but I'm pretty sure I'd flunk a DBT or ABX test."

I always like to bring up the thread where Bob did the upgrade kit from Klipsch that turns a Heresy II into a Heresy III. After Bob normalized the levels, he told me on the phone that he didn't know what to say in the thread because he couldn't hear much of a difference. Daddy Dee and Tony Reed were invited over, and Daddy Dee said "there was no appreciable difference" between the two.

Now, let's contrast that with my experience when I heard the comparison at Klipsch Headquarters. The two loudspeakers were set up in the front of the room. They were hooked up to some very nice top end Aragon equipment. Chairs were set up for the listeners - I think their might have been 30 or so. They let us listen to most of a song through the Heresy II, and then they switched over to the Heresy III. There were some low level gasps, and people were looking around the room, gauging reactions. At the end of the demo, most of the room broke out into applause. Why? Because there was "no appreciable difference"? On the contrary, the difference was pretty dramatic - at least to the 30 or so in that room.

So, let's list the differences between the two set ups.

1) Room (noise floor and room acoustics).

2) Set up (stereo pair vs. mono)

3) Gear (high end SS vs. midlevel SS and laptop)

4) Listeners (music lovers vs. music lovers)

Everyone is hearing fine, but something is responsible for people hearing so differently. Why am I convinced that if Bob, Tony, and Dee had been at that demo in Indy, they would have heard what everyone else heard.

I'm sure Bob would object to me referring to his listening gear as "mid-level", but the Aragon stack was probably approaching $10K. At any rate, I don't think the gear explains the phenomena.

I think it's a combination of #1 and #4. The environment we listen in influences the way we listen, and the way we listen influences what we hear or notice in the music.

People aren't imaging these differences, they exist. But I don't think you're going to notice or care about those differences unless you have an environment tailored for critical listening. This also entails a type of listening that for the most part is dying, along with everything else related to the 2-channel listening experience.

Edited November 25, 2013 by DeanG

[Pete H]

I'm just going to answer about Dave's fastrac horn with the Cornwall 2's, I believe they will fit but I will verify that for you since I have my Cornwall 2's apart for cabinet work and have a fastrac on the shelf. OK, I'm going to answer about some other things too, Bob's cast woofers are better than the originals, Dave's fastracs are much better than the stock mid horns and Bob's CT's are better than the original tweeters but not as good as the Beyma's IMHO and listening to a Cornscala and Cornwall 2 (original) at the same time, not switching A/B and that has been done with a receiver running the show, a couple Carver M200t's, a QSC DCA and my Sansui 8080, but I haven't had tubes in a long time so I can't comment on that.

Others have said, update the crossovers, you should, and then decide how much money you want to spend and in what order and go from there. There are different sounds from different amps, some extremely noticeable and others that won't make a difference, so if you're happy with the sound, that's all that matters.

FYI, my old Sansui sounds better than any combination I have, it's much warmer but will still drive the 15's to "rock out" levels, now that may or may not be less distortion, sounds "more like tubes" or it could just be the fact that it's the sound I like. I'll try and check out the horn fit tonight and let you know.

[Pete H]

Dave's horn will not fit in a Cornwall, so if that's the way you want to go, you can build an additional top box and do a split Cornscala or you can completely abandon the box and build a new one.

[Lemon string]

a lot of great food for thought.....

Rhig thanks for sharing the info on the little 6 watt like I said I'm going to look into it sounds like a really fun experiment.

Pete thanks for the fastrac info. I thought I saw somewhere that they would work with II's. I have noticed some discussions about placing the mids and tweeters on top of the cabinets which does seem interesting to me from an isolation stand point but my only question there is on what effect does this have on the imaging, time alinement, coherence and phasing? In my mind I assume that the original size, placement of drivers and speakers along with spacial relationships were all carefully considered when PWK designed the speakers. This is one reason that I have always been really interested in Bob's cornscala design. Seems like a improvement on what was by combining the best characteristics of two tried and true designs as opposed to a complete redesign. Anyone heard a pair of CW with mids and tweeters on top?

My favorite speakers that I own are a pair of Tannoy super red monitors. They too have 15" woofers but they have a coaxial design with the tweeters placed in the center of the woofer. I've always thought that was where their magic came from. I have these at my studio and I credit them as to what lead me to pursuing the cornwalls at my home. Though they are different beasts I felt like the CW's might come close to offering what I like about the tannoys and I'd say they are close.

Finally Dean thanks for your responses. I really appreciate your thoughts on listening to music, very cool.

This is a cool community, thanks to everyone that has taken the time to chime in with their thoughts and experiences. I've enjoyed the discussion. Can't think of another place where I can discuss my obsession without being dismissed as an obsessive? Know what I mean.....

[derrickdj1]

Good SS perhaps. But receivers and Adcom amps ain't it.

Shakey

The SS amps and avr's can deliver excellent performance. The definition of HiFi is nebulous. Now, some people prefer tube gear over SS but, that is personal preference. I have heard system with both type of gear and in general, I liked them both. The sound from my Yamaha M 80 is crystal clear with a black floor, which is what one wants from an amp. The Class D and D3 amps are also great with 2 channel listening. Most of the newer avrs and SS amps are much better than the SS amps in old transitor days. Even good vitage gear can perform on par with new SS or tube gear.

Edited November 26, 2013 by derrickdj1

[Shakeydeal]

The SS amps and avr's can deliver excellent performance

Some SS amps yes. AVR? Depends on what you listen for. These machines are fine for dinosaur stomps, car crashes and explosions. Music? Not so much........

We will just have to agree to disagree.

Shakey

[Pete H]

Pete thanks for the fastrac info. I thought I saw somewhere that they would work with II's. I have noticed some discussions about placing the mids and tweeters on top of the cabinets which does seem interesting to me from an isolation stand point but my only question there is on what effect does this have on the imaging, time alinement, coherence and phasing? In my mind I assume that the original size, placement of drivers and speakers along with spacial relationships were all carefully considered when PWK designed the speakers. This is one reason that I have always been really interested in Bob's cornscala design. Seems like a improvement on what was by combining the best characteristics of two tried and true designs as opposed to a complete redesign. Anyone heard a pair of CW with mids and tweeters on top?

That's how I built my Cornscala's and others have too. I have a bass bin, Fastrac on top and the Beyma on top of that, although the tweeter could mount in the bass cabinet, really never though about doing that until now. Overall height is at 49" with the tweeters on top. In this configuration, as I've stated, they're better than my stock C2's but they're getting a makeover now and I'm not sure where I'll end up with them, they may be a 2 way.

[Lemon string]

Pete have you done any mods on your II's? (Sorry, if you already mentioned in this thread) I'd love to build a pair of cornscala's down the road.