Scrappydue Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Hi Claude1, You seem to be stuck on the tuba type sub and that's fine it is just not for me. I don't have the space period, the subs I am looking at don't cost $2000 each more like $499 each. I was asking in general because I don't know much about subs and don't keep up with them. This is the first time I have ever considered using a sub for 2 channel music, and didn't kmow where to start looking for a small sub that would work with big horns. You took it upon yourself to get involved in this thread, and you keep talking about horn subs and I have told you many times already not gonna happen. Thanks for all the other imput you had... i used to own two of Svs PB-13 ultras. Then I switched to 18's. I also just sold a Svs sb-12nsd. I can tell you spending a grand on two sb-1000's you ARE GONNA BE DISSAPOINTED! They are for people with very small speakers and in small spaces. For a little over a 1000 you can build half of what I did and have a pair of 18's that should easily fill a medium to large space. I would say they aren't as pretty but the sb-1000 you are looking at is just wrapped in vinyl. That can easily be done. Now if you were looking at a piano gloss sub I'd say that would be harder to do diy style. Anyways click on my sub build in my signature and give it a look very easy. I highly recommend it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Ruler Flat at how many Db at 1 meter???? Roger I just stuck the mike in the horn mouth, laying on the floor and ran a sweep from 10-100 Hz.. The 20-60 Hz. was perfect. The "funky part" of measured output of any tapped horn is not as bad as the Hornresp simulation would have you believe. I tried a large iron core inductor to clean it up, but all it did was lower the overal efficiency, so I left it out. I strictly rely on the LFE filter at THX/80 Hz. to do the job and it works fine. I'm guessing about 95 db/Watt since I typically measured about 10 db W more power than my LaScala-like woofer section (about 105 db/w). So about 12 feet from corner, 85 db level at my sweet spot, I calculated 0.025 Watts thought the woofer section, then measured about 0.25 watts on the sub, which is, obbiously 10X more, meaning 10 db less than the woofer in the stack (see avatar). This was when I lived in a condo, so I didn't crank it too often. When I did, it was probably 2.5 Watts, assuming relative DB display on my receiver was accurate. My on neighbor claimed the pictures on the wall were moving (common wall between our apartments). The LAB 12 Driver is 6 ohms. I had a B&K 200 Watt amp on it, so gobs of head room. The beauty of horn loaded EVERYTHING is that there is never any Non-Linear Power Compression from overheating voice coils. The rule of thumb is never use more than 10% of rated power on a woofer, and there are only two ways to do that. Horn load it it, whether you are talking woofer or Sub-woofer, or buy 10 or more drivers to work in parallel acoustically. Lumber is cheaper than more drivers, especially subwoofer drivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedcrankcammer Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 (edited) ClaudeJ1, What is max SPL??? If I can buy a kit Horn subwoofer that goes down to 15 Hz flat like my Velodynes or puts out 130 Db like my KPT-684s, I am all ears!! Roger Edited December 22, 2013 by twistedcrankcammer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted December 22, 2013 Author Share Posted December 22, 2013 Hi Claude1, You seem to be stuck on the tuba type sub and that's fine it is just not for me. I don't have the space period, the subs I am looking at don't cost $2000 each more like $499 each. I was asking in general because I don't know much about subs and don't keep up with them. This is the first time I have ever considered using a sub for 2 channel music, and didn't kmow where to start looking for a small sub that would work with big horns. You took it upon yourself to get involved in this thread, and you keep talking about horn subs and I have told you many times already not gonna happen. Thanks for all the other imput you had... i used to own two of Svs PB-13 ultras. Then I switched to 18's. I also just sold a Svs sb-12nsd. I can tell you spending a grand on two sb-1000's you ARE GONNA BE DISSAPOINTED! They are for people with very small speakers and in small spaces. For a little over a 1000 you can build half of what I did and have a pair of 18's that should easily fill a medium to large space. I would say they aren't as pretty but the sb-1000 you are looking at is just wrapped in vinyl. That can easily be done. Now if you were looking at a piano gloss sub I'd say that would be harder to do diy style. Anyways click on my sub build in my signature and give it a look very easy. I highly recommend it. Hi Scrappydue, Thanks for the advice and info but, you seemed to have missed the gist of this thread. I need a small sub/subs I do not have the spce for anything large nor do I plan on changing my room to use a larger sub. That is why it must be small if there are no small subs out there that will work I will go without. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 How small is small? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedcrankcammer Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 (edited) Hi Claude1, You seem to be stuck on the tuba type sub and that's fine it is just not for me. I don't have the space period, the subs I am looking at don't cost $2000 each more like $499 each. I was asking in general because I don't know much about subs and don't keep up with them. This is the first time I have ever considered using a sub for 2 channel music, and didn't kmow where to start looking for a small sub that would work with big horns. You took it upon yourself to get involved in this thread, and you keep talking about horn subs and I have told you many times already not gonna happen. Thanks for all the other imput you had... i used to own two of Svs PB-13 ultras. Then I switched to 18's. I also just sold a Svs sb-12nsd. I can tell you spending a grand on two sb-1000's you ARE GONNA BE DISSAPOINTED! They are for people with very small speakers and in small spaces. For a little over a 1000 you can build half of what I did and have a pair of 18's that should easily fill a medium to large space. I would say they aren't as pretty but the sb-1000 you are looking at is just wrapped in vinyl. That can easily be done. Now if you were looking at a piano gloss sub I'd say that would be harder to do diy style. Anyways click on my sub build in my signature and give it a look very easy. I highly recommend it. Hi Scrappydue, Thanks for the advice and info but, you seemed to have missed the gist of this thread. I need a small sub/subs I do not have the spce for anything large nor do I plan on changing my room to use a larger sub. That is why it must be small if there are no small subs out there that will work I will go without. canyonman, What size footprint can your two subs have?? Can they be tall like the SVS cylinders or do they have to be short too?? Is used out of the question??? and... how much do you have too spend??? Roger Edited December 22, 2013 by twistedcrankcammer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted December 22, 2013 Author Share Posted December 22, 2013 Hi Roger, I have about $1000 to spend max, footprint wise 13X13X13 would be good. I can use a taller version but only up to about 26" if I remember right. I looked at the SVS cylinder type and it was too tall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 ClaudeJ1, What is max SPL??? Roger The LAB 12 is a very rugged woofer at 400W/800W Program. I'm confident of the 95 db/w efficiency of the Tapped Horn, which is similar to a Danley DTS-20 (for less than $300). I modeled a JBL 4 ohm car woofer that can be had for about $80, so my coffee table sub could be built for less than $200, representing the best price/performance I know of for subwoofage. Back to your question......if we take a 500 Watt amplifier and convert to DBwatts, we get about 27 DBw. adding this to 95 db/W @ 1 Meter, we should be able to get 122 db out of it. When I had it corner loaded in my "artist loft," it had a 45 foot room to fire into, so the 1/2 wave propagation went pretty darn low. With the best sub bass Blue Rays, it shook to floor, the couch, and your pant leg. One could build 4 of these for $800 (4 drivers plus lumber) in the middle of 4 walls using the affordable JBL driver (http://www.jbl.com/EN-EU/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?PID=GTO1214 and absolutely kill any direct radiator subwoofage at 2-4X the price. But, with enough cash, you could make direct radiator subs work too, but I'm a best bang for buck audiophile and I'm not alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Hi Roger, I have about $1000 to spend max, footprint wise 13X13X13 would be good. I can use a taller version but only up to about 26" if I remember right. I looked at the SVS cylinder type and it was too tall. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunfire-True-Subwoofer-EQ-12-Signature-TS-EQ12/331091705797?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D261%26meid%3D3579953257105708125%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D331089472926%26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted December 22, 2013 Author Share Posted December 22, 2013 Ok guys there seems to be alot of confusion as to my needs/wants, so take a look at my other thread in 2channel forum about acoustics it has pic's of my room and you can see the space I have for the subs. In looking at the pic's I want the subs to be in front of the shelving between them and the speakers. The area between the legs of the stands is about 13", so it's there or next to the speakers as my last option.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 ClaudeJ1, What is max SPL??? Roger The LAB 12 is a very rugged woofer at 400W/800W Program. I'm confident of the 95 db/w efficiency of the Tapped Horn, which is similar to a Danley DTS-20 (for less than $300). I modeled a JBL 4 ohm car woofer that can be had for about $80, so my coffee table sub could be built for less than $200, representing the best price/performance I know of for subwoofage. Back to your question......if we take a 500 Watt amplifier and convert to DBwatts, we get about 27 DBw. adding this to 95 db/W @ 1 Meter, we should be able to get 122 db out of it. When I had it corner loaded in my "artist loft," it had a 45 foot room to fire into, so the 1/2 wave propagation went pretty darn low. With the best sub bass Blue Rays, it shook to floor, the couch, and your pant leg. One could build 4 of these for $800 (4 drivers plus lumber) in the middle of 4 walls using the affordable JBL driver (http://www.jbl.com/EN-EU/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?PID=GTO1214 and absolutely kill any direct radiator subwoofage at 2-4X the price. But, with enough cash, you could make direct radiator subs work too, but I'm a best bang for buck audiophile and I'm not alone. That driver has cone to surround seperation issues, i would choose another model. If i recall correctly the Infinity driver with similar specs has the same problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Hi Roger, I have about $1000 to spend max, footprint wise 13X13X13 would be good. I can use a taller version but only up to about 26" if I remember right. I looked at the SVS cylinder type and it was too tall. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunfire-True-Subwoofer-EQ-12-Signature-TS-EQ12/331091705797?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D261%26meid%3D3579953257105708125%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D331089472926%26 better yet http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunfire-True-Subwoofer-Signature-/281227952200?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item417a7e0048 don't snooze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted December 22, 2013 Author Share Posted December 22, 2013 Hi Roger, I have about $1000 to spend max, footprint wise 13X13X13 would be good. I can use a taller version but only up to about 26" if I remember right. I looked at the SVS cylinder type and it was too tall. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunfire-True-Subwoofer-EQ-12-Signature-TS-EQ12/331091705797?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D261%26meid%3D3579953257105708125%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D331089472926%26 better yet http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunfire-True-Subwoofer-Signature-/281227952200?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item417a7e0048 don't snooze Claude1, Are you now saying that this sub will work with my Khorns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Hi Roger, I have about $1000 to spend max, footprint wise 13X13X13 would be good. I can use a taller version but only up to about 26" if I remember right. I looked at the SVS cylinder type and it was too tall. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunfire-True-Subwoofer-EQ-12-Signature-TS-EQ12/331091705797?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D261%26meid%3D3579953257105708125%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D331089472926%26 better yet http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunfire-True-Subwoofer-Signature-/281227952200?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item417a7e0048 don't snooze Claude1, Are you now saying that this sub will work with my Khorns? If you place it right and cross it at the optimum point for your room, yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 If your just a 2 channel guy and the khorns have more bass and go lower than my Cornwalls I'd rock no sub over spending 500$+ on something that is gonna give you an extra 2% of the experience. Maybe one day you'll have the room for something that will give you what you really desire. I've heard a lot of sundries and they do go pretty low but they just don't have much output. I've never heard khorns but I'd certainly say it would lose pace really fast. I have no desire to add a sub to my 2 channel setup but if I ever do it will Be a couple 18's so they won't have a problem keeping up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedcrankcammer Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Hi Roger, I have about $1000 to spend max, footprint wise 13X13X13 would be good. I can use a taller version but only up to about 26" if I remember right. I looked at the SVS cylinder type and it was too tall. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunfire-True-Subwoofer-EQ-12-Signature-TS-EQ12/331091705797?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D261%26meid%3D3579953257105708125%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D331089472926%26 better yet http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunfire-True-Subwoofer-Signature-/281227952200?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item417a7e0048 don't snooze Claude1, Are you now saying that this sub will work with my Khorns? canyonman. You could look into a pair of used Velodyne HGS-12s on ebay or HGS-10s, those two models would fit your parameters very well. No Velodyne HGS-12s presently and one HGS 10 that is a little over priced at $550, I would offer $400 at best, but other deals will come along. Sorry it took so long to get back to you, had Christmas at the outlaws... Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted December 22, 2013 Author Share Posted December 22, 2013 Thanks Roger... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 It is just my opinion but, with the size of the woofer in the Khorns, I think you do not need a sub for 2 channel. The sub should provide a richness to the sound and that will be hard pressed for anything in your size constraints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted December 23, 2013 Author Share Posted December 23, 2013 You may be right but, room measurements say different. I had said before the sound i am hearing is good and I may not really need a sub but, if you look at the measurements of my room they show a need for a sub. I do realize that finding a sub as small as I want and for it to be able to keep up with the Khorns may not be possible, all I can do is try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted December 24, 2013 Share Posted December 24, 2013 I always needed a subwoofer with my K Horns for 2 channel until I enclosed the backs. I used a Klipsch SW15 at the time, not a very good subwoofer, but it put out a lot of bass, even though it was sloppy. After enclosing the backs of the k Horns I used to think the subwoofer was on and it was not, I eventually stopped using it (2 channel listening). I extended the backs out a little more than most, but did not have them in the corners. I had an active X over so I was able to set each drivers level. Food for thought. Maybe you do not need as much subwoofer that you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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