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How good are The Jubilees today?

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Hi guys. First post here. I have a lot of questions regarding the classic two-way Klipsch Jubilee speakers. Hope I can lure as many owners and those who know these speakers well out of the cave. Perhaps I'll be the first Jubilee owner in Norway :-)

Let me dive right into it and ask a few. Answer whatever you feel.

1. This is an old design. And I'm wondering if the K-402 holds up to more modern lenses. I've seen the polar plots of K402 and I'm impressed. But what is uncertain to me is how smooth it is compared newer OS waveguides (Geddes design) and for example JMLC horns. Anyway who have done a proper AB comparison or share info based on measurements?

2. Is the bass bin with two 12" as good as it get's for 12" sized drivers?

3. There's a lot of opinions regarding two-way vs. three-ways and many say a one driver splimpy can't cover suc a wide area with great result. I disregard deep bass here. Subwoofers are best for that anyway. But the question is if a 2" compression driver can cover the frequency range we're talking about here effortless with very low distortion or a going three-way with another tweeter is an upgrade. Obviously a crossover isn't perfect and one more will yield a worse polar response, but might it still be a better compromise? What's the experience here?

4. I see several upgradring from the stock driver to a TAD one. I'm not willing to buy a new TAD driver. I have however considered getting something like a JBL 2446 and change the diaphragm to a Truextent beryllium. Are there anyone who have tried this? It's certainly a lot cheaper then getting a TAD driver and may be just as good.

http://www.speakerrepair.com/page/product/Be4008.html

5. From what I understand the K402 can be bought alone. Are the either any certain designs for the bass bins out there or someone builds them cheaper then what Klipsch sell them for? It would also require setup/EQ for an active crossover. I assume there aren't any K402 clones, but let me know if there are.

post-57108-0-28140000-1386176982_thumb.j

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I agree with you about using subs (from 10-60 hz.).

I prefer the lower profile of an MWMs(ingle) woofer section with a low Qes woofer like the EVM 15L or B which has a more seamless "hand off" to the K-402.

I owned, used, and measured JBL 2446J drivers in the 2360 horn they were designed for as well as the 402. The 402 is a smoother and wider band horn than the 2360. I have met and spoken at length to the respective horn designers also (Keele and Delgado). The JBL has slightly wider dispersion angle at 8 Khz. but the K-402 goes way lower, to 300 hz. which is what I wanted, so I went 3-way using the Klipsch K1133 which was designed to be used as a 3-way in the K-402. Klipsch made a K1132, which looks the same but had a different phase plug to go higher but sacrifices the low end to do it. Another vote for 3 way means your super tweeter section can have the same 90 degree dispersion as the mid, which means no head vise for the cymbal harmonics near the sweet spot.

Geddes (fellow Michiganian) stated that the B&C 1" driver he uses sounds as good as a TAD for 1/10th the price, so that is what I use. See Avatar.

After looking at the True Extend curves, and owning several JBL 2446 drivers, I am SURE that it would make a fine 2-way driver in a K402. The Jubilee is a fine choice, but designed my own 17" tall bass horn to lower the stack and improve the perfomance of the woofer section at 60 Hz. where I cross to twin Danley Super Spuds.

500 Hz. is the preferred Xover point with Linkwitz Riley active filters on a Jubilee bass bin, but I'm crossing at 320 and will continue to do so when my new bass horns are done (5 ft. long instead of 6 ft. for an MWMs, but wider dispersion and fits neatly into a corner.

IOW, you are barking up the right tree with the direction you wish to take IMHO.

Edited by ClaudeJ1
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I don't have Jubs, but I do have 2 different systems that use the K-402 horns. One is an MCM-4 (active), the other is a 2-way setup that uses K402 on top of a dual cornwall bass bin and passive networks. These bass bins are home built and called DBBs. They have the volume of 2 cornwalls in each cabinet. You will find DBBs on this forum.

Anyhow on the big setup I do use the expensive TAD 4002s. On the 2-way setup I use BMS 4592ND coaxial drivers. So 2 drivers on a single horn. Now that I have been using these for awhile I have to say I absolutely love them. I see no reason for another horn on top in this setup. The BMS easily get out to 20K and have a ton of energy. I probably would not have purchased TADs if these were around a few years ago.

On the big setup the TADs only play to 6K on the K-402 and then a "tweeter (K-510)" is used from 6K-20K. OK......that's a little better. More separation and clarity. But it also costs way more.

But a highly satisfying setup is the BMS coaxial driver on the K402 horn.

I pretty much abandoned all the older Klipsch Heritage exponential horns. After getting used to the newer and larger Klipsch systems........I'm sold.

Jubilees included. I've heard the Jubs many times and they are everything you hear about them.

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I think you should consider the advice of Mark 1101. He and I started the "upgrade from Khorns" path about 6 years ago, with different economics and choices, but getting better sound either way.

I would take his advice on the BMS drivers if I were you, but either way, the K402 should be the horn of choice.

Here are some plots of my JBL 2446J driver on the JBL 2360 vs. the K-402

post-20774-0-14540000-1386185998_thumb.j

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The BMS easily get out to 20K and have a ton of energy. I probably would not have purchased TADs if these were around a few years ago.

They were. I even asked Roy about them when we were in Hope on that first trip. I think his eyes just glazed over.

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/74255-2-tractrix-wood-horn-bms-4590-listen/?hl=coax

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I use the Faital HF200 driver on the K-402 in my Jubilees. The Faital driver matches up with the K-402 horn better than any other driver I have heard of. By that, I mean needs less EQ to work right. I use passive crossovers with mine.

Bob Crites

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I agree with you about using subs (from 10-60 hz.).

I prefer the lower profile of an MWMs(ingle) woofer section with a low Qes woofer like the EVM 15L or B which has a more seamless "hand off" to the K-402.

I owned, used, and measured JBL 2446J drivers in the 2360 horn they were designed for as well as the 402. The 402 is a smoother and wider band horn than the 2360. I have met and spoken at length to the respective horn designers also (Keele and Delgado). The JBL has slightly wider dispersion angle at 8 Khz. but the K-402 goes way lower, to 300 hz. which is what I wanted, so I went 3-way using the Klipsch K1133 which was designed to be used as a 3-way in the K-402. Klipsch made a K1132, which looks the same but had a different phase plug to go higher but sacrifices the low end to do it. Another vote for 3 way means your super tweeter section can have the same 90 degree dispersion as the mid, which means no head vise for the cymbal harmonics near the sweet spot.

Geddes (fellow Michiganian) stated that the B&C 1" driver he uses sounds as good as a TAD for 1/10th the price, so that is what I use. See Avatar.

After looking at the True Extend curves, and owning several JBL 2446 drivers, I am SURE that it would make a fine 2-way driver in a K402. The Jubilee is a fine choice, but designed my own 17" tall bass horn to lower the stack and improve the perfomance of the woofer section at 60 Hz. where I cross to twin Danley Super Spuds.

500 Hz. is the preferred Xover point with Linkwitz Riley active filters on a Jubilee bass bin, but I'm crossing at 320 and will continue to do so when my new bass horns are done (5 ft. long instead of 6 ft. for an MWMs, but wider dispersion and fits neatly into a corner.

IOW, you are barking up the right tree with the direction you wish to take IMHO.

Thanks for chiming in.

What is a MWMs woofer section?

Nice to hear the comparison with JBL 2360. I haven't heard the 2360 myself, but I hear other say it doesn't sound smooth below 700-800 Hz.

You said you went 3-way using K1133. What is a K1133 and why did go 3-way? Is 3-way in you opinion a substantial upgrade from the 2-way?

A little sidenote. I have to admit I don't trust Geddes on this one (B&C DE250). I have a pair of Abbey speakers with this driver and while they are fine speakers in several ways, they really lack openness in transparency in the treble compared to some other speakers I have. Difficult to know for sure what's causing it. However, I do hear from those DIYers that have tried DE250 and compared it to other drivers say the exactly the same as I experience. In Abbey DE250 work from 1kHz and up.

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I don't have Jubs, but I do have 2 different systems that use the K-402 horns. One is an MCM-4 (active), the other is a 2-way setup that uses K402 on top of a dual cornwall bass bin and passive networks. These bass bins are home built and called DBBs. They have the volume of 2 cornwalls in each cabinet. You will find DBBs on this forum.

Anyhow on the big setup I do use the expensive TAD 4002s. On the 2-way setup I use BMS 4592ND coaxial drivers. So 2 drivers on a single horn. Now that I have been using these for awhile I have to say I absolutely love them. I see no reason for another horn on top in this setup. The BMS easily get out to 20K and have a ton of energy. I probably would not have purchased TADs if these were around a few years ago.

On the big setup the TADs only play to 6K on the K-402 and then a "tweeter (K-510)" is used from 6K-20K. OK......that's a little better. More separation and clarity. But it also costs way more.

But a highly satisfying setup is the BMS coaxial driver on the K402 horn.

I pretty much abandoned all the older Klipsch Heritage exponential horns. After getting used to the newer and larger Klipsch systems........I'm sold.

Jubilees included. I've heard the Jubs many times and they are everything you hear about them.

Interesting to hear about you experience with TAD 402 and BMS 4592ND. Nice to know about other options.

Never heard about the DBBs. I have a lot of things to look into. So many options....

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1. This is an old design. And I'm wondering if the K-402 holds up to more modern lenses. I've seen the polar plots of K402 and I'm impressed. But what is uncertain to me is how smooth it is compared newer OS waveguides (Geddes design) and for example JMLC horns. Anyway who have done a proper AB comparison or share info based on measurements?

A smoother frequency response doesn't necessarily translate into a subjectively superior listening experience. Honest. Big horns produce big sound, and it's very difficult to go back once you experience it. I intitially liked the stock K-69-K driver (P. Audio BMD 750), but over time I found myself experiencing listening fatique, which I attributed to the titanium diaphragms. Research into this area confirmed my suspicions. I now listen with Radian coaxials with aluminium diaphragms.

2. Is the bass bin with two 12" as good as it get's for 12" sized drivers?

It's pretty impressive. There's very little distortion. The sound comes at you like a LaScala, but much deeper and with greater authority.

3. There's a lot of opinions regarding two-way vs. three-ways and many say a one driver splimpy can't cover suc a wide area with great result. I disregard deep bass here. Subwoofers are best for that anyway. But the question is if a 2" compression driver can cover the frequency range we're talking about here effortless with very low distortion or a going three-way with another tweeter is an upgrade. Obviously a crossover isn't perfect and one more will yield a worse polar response, but might it still be a better compromise? What's the experience here?

When I heard the direct comparison in Hope, I immediately preferred the three-way professional set up over the two-way set up. Listeners in the room were about evenly divided. I wouldn't be concerned with the crossover. A properly designed filter provides for an almost seemless transition.

4. I see several upgradring from the stock driver to a TAD one. I'm not willing to buy a new TAD driver. I have however considered getting something like a JBL 2446 and change the diaphragm to a Truextent beryllium. Are there anyone who have tried this? It's certainly a lot cheaper then getting a TAD driver and may be just as good.

http://www.speakerrepair.com/page/product/Be4008.html

I would like to see Roy dump the P. Audio driver in favor of the B&C that is used on the HF-904. This would require that Roy develop new active settings and another passive network design. If you have the room and money, just buy the three-way version. I'm in agreement with Claude regarding the use of the K-1133. It's a killer driver, and the reason I think I preferred the three-way version over the two-way. I have no extensive experience with the three-way set up, and for all I know, I might, over time, have developed the same headache with the K-1133 that I did with the K-69 -- I have no way of knowing. Remember, I'm just one guy with an opinion.

5. From what I understand the K402 can be bought alone. Are the either any certain designs for the bass bins out there or someone builds them cheaper then what Klipsch sell them for? It would also require setup/EQ for an active crossover. I assume there aren't any K402 clones, but let me know if there are.

I would avoid the clones. There are several sets of plans floating around, and only one set is considered remotely close -- and that person is not releasing them for public consumption.

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I think you should consider the advice of Mark 1101. He and I started the "upgrade from Khorns" path about 6 years ago, with different economics and choices, but getting better sound either way.

I would take his advice on the BMS drivers if I were you, but either way, the K402 should be the horn of choice.

Here are some plots of my JBL 2446J driver on the JBL 2360 vs. the K-402

I love measurements. The red one, which I assume is the K-402, look very smooth. Just out of curiosity; The graph rolls off quite a bit. From 1kHz to 10kHz it has fallen with 5 dB. Is that how you prefer them tuned?

Would be great to see more measurements from other Jubilee setups. I'm assumning because the speakers will use the room as a waveguide and thus have controlled directivity down to the schroeder frequency, that the response will be very even in most cases. But the proof is in the pudding. 1/24 smoothing is perfect. Doesn't matter if one speaker is measured alone or both.

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On the 402 I tried the Klipsch K-69, Faitals, TADs, and BMS so far. Nothing significantly challenges the superior clarity of the TADs in a heads up listening test. The BMS were the closest I've heard, and are "good enough" IMHO, given the cost and unobtanium status of the TADs.

Bob brings up a good point about EQ. If you use a K-402 you WILL require an equalizer, and it may challenge you in the beginning to get them to sound right. However, I wouldn't be concerned because there is ample support for that and numersous ways to achieve success.

Dean, After the first trip I bought MWMs, 402s (K-69) and eventually TADs. On the second trip I think we demo'd the BMS and really didn't spend the time to tune those properly. I never was interested in them until this year when JWC waived them in front of me and I spent the time to dial them in. Love them now. Highly recommend.

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Here is a trace of the Faital HF200 on the K402. Red is raw and green is with the passive crossover.

post-7208-0-64660000-1386190628_thumb.jp

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I use the Faital HF200 driver on the K-402 in my Jubilees. The Faital driver matches up with the K-402 horn better than any other driver I have heard of. By that, I mean needs less EQ to work right. I use passive crossovers with mine.

Bob Crites

Thanks. I see it's very reasonable too.

I'm definetly going active and I'm not sure if using EQ has any negative effects in that regard. Hard to know.

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I agree with you about using subs (from 10-60 hz.).

I prefer the lower profile of an MWMs(ingle) woofer section with a low Qes woofer like the EVM 15L or B which has a more seamless "hand off" to the K-402.

I owned, used, and measured JBL 2446J drivers in the 2360 horn they were designed for as well as the 402. The 402 is a smoother and wider band horn than the 2360. I have met and spoken at length to the respective horn designers also (Keele and Delgado). The JBL has slightly wider dispersion angle at 8 Khz. but the K-402 goes way lower, to 300 hz. which is what I wanted, so I went 3-way using the Klipsch K1133 which was designed to be used as a 3-way in the K-402. Klipsch made a K1132, which looks the same but had a different phase plug to go higher but sacrifices the low end to do it. Another vote for 3 way means your super tweeter section can have the same 90 degree dispersion as the mid, which means no head vise for the cymbal harmonics near the sweet spot.

Geddes (fellow Michiganian) stated that the B&C 1" driver he uses sounds as good as a TAD for 1/10th the price, so that is what I use. See Avatar.

After looking at the True Extend curves, and owning several JBL 2446 drivers, I am SURE that it would make a fine 2-way driver in a K402. The Jubilee is a fine choice, but designed my own 17" tall bass horn to lower the stack and improve the perfomance of the woofer section at 60 Hz. where I cross to twin Danley Super Spuds.

500 Hz. is the preferred Xover point with Linkwitz Riley active filters on a Jubilee bass bin, but I'm crossing at 320 and will continue to do so when my new bass horns are done (5 ft. long instead of 6 ft. for an MWMs, but wider dispersion and fits neatly into a corner.

IOW, you are barking up the right tree with the direction you wish to take IMHO.

Thanks for chiming in.

What is a MWMs woofer section?

Nice to hear the comparison with JBL 2360. I haven't heard the 2360 myself, but I hear other say it doesn't sound smooth below 700-800 Hz.

You said you went 3-way using K1133. What is a K1133 and why did go 3-way? Is 3-way in you opinion a substantial upgrade from the 2-way?

A little sidenote. I have to admit I don't trust Geddes on this one (B&C DE250). I have a pair of Abbey speakers with this driver and while they are fine speakers in several ways, they really lack openness in transparency in the treble compared to some other speakers I have. Difficult to know for sure what's causing it. However, I do hear from those DIYers that have tried DE250 and compared it to other drivers say the exactly the same as I experience. In Abbey DE250 work from 1kHz and up.

I'm happy with my DE-250's, but the guys on the DIY forum prefer the BMS equivalent. I'm quite happy with mine on the QSC horn, and I cross them at 4 Khz, which is where the K-1133 driver starts to roll off in the K-402, but it's worth it because it gets down to 300 Hz.. From a transient response perspective, will trounce anything coming off a 12 or 15" cone through a folded horn labyrinth any day of the week.

When I had the JBL2446J/2360 horns, I crossed them at 700 Hz.to a Peavey Midbass Horn (that horn was amazing from 180-700 Hz., but I wanted to go from 4-way with sub to 3-way with sub. Any driver with the K-402 will beam slightly at about 8Khz. on up. If you can tolerate that (single listener sweet spot), then you can go with a 2-way, which can be easier to implement.

Lots of opinions here. All good choices.

I do like the Jubilee bin, but I wanted an easier build and/or cheaper buy with a lower profile. It's all about personal trade-offs.

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These are all good questions. Let me start by saying I use K-402 horns and Jubilee bass bins (copies). The bass bins sound very good and have the footprint of a Klipschorn (the MWM will be much larger). It is very good sounding and sounds best when it is near a corner (although it does not need to be tight in a corner like the Klipschorn). The K-402 is a very good sounding horn. Even with the K-69 driver it sounds very good. I also use a JBL 2446 driver and that is a step up (you can find these at affordable prices in the US). I have never heard the TADs but the price alone scares me away. People that I trust assure me that they sound very good and certainly better than the K-69. I have thought about setting up a 3-way system (K-510 for the tweeter), but I have not felt the need to.

A few quick statements.

Do not bother with the clones

Do not worry about a CD horn requiring EQ (they all do)

I have yet to be convinced that the OS horn is all that "they" claim

The Jubilee bass bin is remarkable

The K-402 horn is remarkable (regardless of driver).

There are very few places in Europe to audition a Jubilee. That is unfortunate.

Good luck,

-Tom

Edited by PrestonTom
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These are all good questions. Let me start by saying I use K-402 horns and Jubilee bass bins (copies). The bass bins sound very good and have the footprint of a Klipschorn (the MWM will be much larger). It is very good sounding and sounds best when it is near a corner (although it does not need to be tight in a corner like the Klipschorn). The K-402 is a very good sounding horn. Even with the K-69 driver it sounds very good. I also use a JBL 2446 driver and that is a step up (you can find these at affordable prices in the US). I have never heard the TADs but the price alsone scares me away. People that I trust assure me that it sounds very good and certainly better than the K-69. I have thought about setting up a 3-way system (K-510 for the tweeter), but I have not felt the need to.

A few quick statements.

Do not bother with the clones

Do not worry about a CD horn requiring EQ (they all do)

I have yet to be convinced that the OS horn is all that "they" claim

The Jubilee bass bin is remarkable

The K-402 horn is remarkable (regardless of driver).

There are very few places in Europe to audition a Jubilee. That is unfortunate.

Good luck,

-Tom

ALL Good points, Tom. I had MWMs and decided to build a lightly smaller, more corner friendly version of my own design. I will post the plans ONLY after I have tested them to my satisfaction. Hornresp is a good program for saving sawdust, but at some point you gotta build and test. Wish me luck. Here's a rough markup of what I designed and built. One down, one to go. The one with the radius is what I built from the original concept. I didn't like the 55hz. peak in the MWMs. This horn models a lot flatter and goes out to 600 Hz. easily with the EVM woofer, which I now have in my FH-1/"cheap Scalas" A Jubilee bin is fine for a 2-way, but the tweeters sit up and extra 2 feet (way too high for a 3-way in living room). I'm hoping to get the best of all worlds in my simple bass horn made with 11 pieces of 3/4 plywood.

post-20774-0-17980000-1386194732_thumb.j

post-20774-0-35420000-1386195364_thumb.j

Edited by ClaudeJ1

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Bob,

Did you ever test the Faital Pro drivers on a K-510? I have been using them for a few months on the K-510 (6K-20K) as my tweeter in my MCM-4 setup and they sound superb.

Is the K510 a CD horn? I don't even know. But I am not using any EQ at all and I get a reasonable curve and fine sound.

Anywhere anyone uses a K-402 you can improve the situation by adding a K-510 sitting above it as a tweeter. Not necessary, but actually that combo is the best top end I have heard from Klipsch. It can be found in the cinema products.

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Thanks for the replies guys. This is helping.

I think the 2-way vs 3-way question is the hardest to find the answer to. DeanG mentioned that with a proper filter, the crossover is seamless. That's true as long as we're talking about the direct sound, but not with the off-axis response. Off-axis one will see additional lobing. There simply no solution for that, not even a FIR filter. And there's little doubt in my mind that lobing off-axis is audible and detrimental. So if a 3-way is still better, it needs to add something that's more positive that the negative trait. I'm wondering what that is. Is it less distortion? Is that really audible if we're talking about a driver like JBL 2446 with a beryllium diaphragm? Or is it less beaming maybe. If it's only matter of beaming starting later in frequency, I'm uncertain if that matters. With horns, there will always be beaming anyway. For one listener and when the reflections have been treated with broadband treatment, it shouldn't matter IMO.

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Bob,

Did you ever test the Faital Pro drivers on a K-510? I have been using them for a few months on the K-510 (6K-20K) as my tweeter in my MCM-4 setup and they sound superb.

Is the K510 a CD horn? I don't even know. But I am not using any EQ at all and I get a reasonable curve and fine sound.

Anywhere anyone uses a K-402 you can improve the situation by adding a K-510 sitting above it as a tweeter. Not necessary, but actually that combo is the best top end I have heard from Klipsch. It can be found in the cinema products.

Mark,

No, I haven't tested that. Never had a K-510 to play with. I expect it would work great on the K510. Too bad the K-510 is so hard to get. If I could get them easily and they work as good as I think they would, I would make a 2-way Cornscala based on that horn and the Faital driver for the HF.

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Bob,

Did you ever test the Faital Pro drivers on a K-510? I have been using them for a few months on the K-510 (6K-20K) as my tweeter in my MCM-4 setup and they sound superb.

Is the K510 a CD horn? I don't even know. But I am not using any EQ at all and I get a reasonable curve and fine sound.

Anywhere anyone uses a K-402 you can improve the situation by adding a K-510 sitting above it as a tweeter. Not necessary, but actually that combo is the best top end I have heard from Klipsch. It can be found in the cinema products.

Mark, this is where you and I might disagree. By Roy's own admission, the K-510 was designed to BLAST high frequencies though a movie screen in a large theater and is not necessary for home use. The Pro application takes the extra output power of a 2" driver, and the reason for the 510's existence in the Klipsch Professional Theater line in the first place. That part of the spectrum in a home situation would be better served by a 1" driver for that frequency band. The term overkill comes to mind but then again we are both guilty of that to some degree! LOL.

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