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Bjorn

How good are The Jubilees today?

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Thanks for the replies guys. This is helping.

I think the 2-way vs 3-way question is the hardest to find the answer to. DeanG mentioned that with a proper filter, the crossover is seamless. That's true as long as we're talking about the direct sound, but not with the off-axis response. Off-axis one will see additional lobing. There simply no solution for that, not even a FIR filter. And there's little doubt in my mind that lobing off-axis is audible and detrimental. So if a 3-way is still better, it needs to add something that's more positive that the negative trait. I'm wondering what that is. Is it less distortion? Is that really audible if we're talking about a driver like JBL 2446 with a beryllium diaphragm? Or is it less beaming maybe. If it's only matter of beaming starting later in frequency, I'm uncertain if that matters. With horns, there will always be beaming anyway. For one listener and when the reflections have been treated with broadband treatment, it shouldn't matter IMO.

I don't think the beaming issue is a big deal because the K-402 still has good dispersion up there, and I have heard it many times with the Klipsch as well as the TAD driver. If you look at the True Extent curves, the diaphragm resonances are pushed to 20 Khz., which are not audible anyhow. In terms of bang of the buck, you may want to try the Faital Pro before you cut loose even bigger bucks for Beryllium diaphragms on JBL drivers. What you do get going 2-way is phase coherence which can be very important. Either way, the K-402 is the best mid/tweeter horn I know of.

Edited by ClaudeJ1

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" I have to admit I don't trust Geddes"

He is not very helpful, is he?

Some of his conclusions show confirmation bias.

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Claude,

I have my processor programmed to run the MCM setup as an MCM-3 or as an MCM-4 with all of the appropriate settings changed at the push of a button. This is one of the ways (along with RTA measurements) I tuned the 4 setup when I added the K-510. Not surprisingly, the 4 sounds much better than the 3. Better separation and clarity. You should hear it before you bust it due to theory. I am probably running the K-510 and the whole setup seriously de-fueled. I only use as much amps as required to balance the setup. :)

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Just a copuple of more quick points re: above posts.

Yes, the K-510 is a CD horn (off-axis and on-axis response are comparable). The combo of a Jub bass bin / K-402 mid / K-510 high would be a great combo and is similar to factory offering. I would love to have one myself.

The biggest advatnge to a Be diaphragm is with a two-way system. In a three-way the advantage could be less obvious.

With a K-402 in a two way system, I would not worry about dispersion (narrowing) at the high frequencies.

One thought: worry more about the horn and less about the driver.

Good luck,

-Tmo

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Thanks for the replies guys. This is helping.

I think the 2-way vs 3-way question is the hardest to find the answer to. DeanG mentioned that with a proper filter, the crossover is seamless. That's true as long as we're talking about the direct sound, but not with the off-axis response. Off-axis one will see additional lobing. There simply no solution for that, not even a FIR filter. And there's little doubt in my mind that lobing off-axis is audible and detrimental. So if a 3-way is still better, it needs to add something that's more positive that the negative trait. I'm wondering what that is. Is it less distortion? Is that really audible if we're talking about a driver like JBL 2446 with a beryllium diaphragm? Or is it less beaming maybe. If it's only matter of beaming starting later in frequency, I'm uncertain if that matters. With horns, there will always be beaming anyway. For one listener and when the reflections have been treated with broadband treatment, it shouldn't matter IMO.

I don't think the beaming issue is a big deal because the K-402 still has good dispersion up there, and I have heard it many times with the Klipsch as well as the TAD driver. If you look at the True Extent curves, the diaphragm resonances are pushed to 20 Khz., which are not audible anyhow. In terms of bang of the buck, you may want to try the Faital Pro before you cut loose even bigger bucks for Beryllium diaphragms on JBL drivers. What you do get going 2-way is phase coherence which can be very important. Either way, the K-402 is the best mid/tweeter horn I know of.

I agree. The polar doesn't show much beaming.

I think I'm heading for a 2-way. I guess I can always experiment with another tweeter later. The 2-way approach with a low crossover is tempting to me. There's something about a coherent sound which I've heard from such speakers that's intrigues me. Vocally, they sound more like the real deal. An electostatic speaker like Soundlab has given me this experience, but with a lack of dynamics and bass. The Manger driver and Gobel speakers have also this coherency, with still not with great dynamics.

http://www.manger-audio.co.uk/manger-speakers-transducer.htm

http://www.goebel-highend.de/en/company/research.html

The K-402 should be a step up from these when it comes to dynamics and with a better dispersion.

I'm going try to contact Roy Delgado about buying K-402. Last time I asked Klipsch about the 2-way Jubilee, it's like they were clueless to what I was talking about and said they only had the 3-way cinema version. Later I've read Roy is the one to talk to and hopefully I can get hold of him.

Next step is to find out what bass solution to use. I can always try JBL 2226 (bass reflex) to begin with. I have six of them. However, a bass bin is probaly an upgrade. Are there any drawings out there? I either need to drawings to hand over to a carpenter or buy something finished. I don't build myself.

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" I have to admit I don't trust Geddes"

He is not very helpful, is he?

Some of his conclusions show confirmation bias.

I personally like Geddes' objectivism and I think he's a real asset to the DIY community. At the same time, he's selling his own products, has vested interests and his opinions reflect that to some degree. I know enough about small room acoustics for instance that I can see that some of the info he shares are not entirely correct. Geddes goes after the broad lines which is ok, but he's isn't a perfectionist. A seller often has to do that. Perfectionism costs too much and makes it difficult to give recommendations for people. Most want quick and general answers.

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One weekend we went through the various tractrix combos and also 403, 402, 402/510 and the decision was unanimous that the 402/510 combo was the best. Even with the stock drivers it was amazing.

I would listen to the Jubilees with Roys tweaked crossover with the bass boost. I've never felt the need for a sub nor would I want to jack up the sound trying to find one that can keep up with the jubilees.

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Claude,

I have my processor programmed to run the MCM setup as an MCM-3 or as an MCM-4 with all of the appropriate settings changed at the push of a button. This is one of the ways (along with RTA measurements) I tuned the 4 setup when I added the K-510. Not surprisingly, the 4 sounds much better than the 3. Better separation and clarity. You should hear it before you bust it due to theory. I am probably running the K-510 and the whole setup seriously de-fueled. I only use as much amps as required to balance the setup. :)

Sorry Mark, I keep forgetting you are doing high end Active Xovers and PEQ, duh. So my comment wasn't so much about overkill as it was economics, it certainly doesn't suck. LOL.. Danley uses a DE-250 in his top of the line SH-50 horn and it's a 1" driver, so I'm just sayin'..............

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" I have to admit I don't trust Geddes"

He is not very helpful, is he?

Some of his conclusions show confirmation bias.

Now, THAT is funny...........confirmtion bias. Hah!!

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Thanks for the replies guys. This is helping.

I think the 2-way vs 3-way question is the hardest to find the answer to. DeanG mentioned that with a proper filter, the crossover is seamless. That's true as long as we're talking about the direct sound, but not with the off-axis response. Off-axis one will see additional lobing. There simply no solution for that, not even a FIR filter. And there's little doubt in my mind that lobing off-axis is audible and detrimental. So if a 3-way is still better, it needs to add something that's more positive that the negative trait. I'm wondering what that is. Is it less distortion? Is that really audible if we're talking about a driver like JBL 2446 with a beryllium diaphragm? Or is it less beaming maybe. If it's only matter of beaming starting later in frequency, I'm uncertain if that matters. With horns, there will always be beaming anyway. For one listener and when the reflections have been treated with broadband treatment, it shouldn't matter IMO.

I don't think the beaming issue is a big deal because the K-402 still has good dispersion up there, and I have heard it many times with the Klipsch as well as the TAD driver. If you look at the True Extent curves, the diaphragm resonances are pushed to 20 Khz., which are not audible anyhow. In terms of bang of the buck, you may want to try the Faital Pro before you cut loose even bigger bucks for Beryllium diaphragms on JBL drivers. What you do get going 2-way is phase coherence which can be very important. Either way, the K-402 is the best mid/tweeter horn I know of.

I agree. The polar doesn't show much beaming.

I think I'm heading for a 2-way. I guess I can always experiment with another tweeter later. The 2-way approach with a low crossover is tempting to me. There's something about a coherent sound which I've heard from such speakers that's intrigues me. Vocally, they sound more like the real deal. An electostatic speaker like Soundlab has given me this experience, but with a lack of dynamics and bass. The Manger driver and Gobel speakers have also this coherency, with still not with great dynamics.

http://www.manger-audio.co.uk/manger-speakers-transducer.htm

http://www.goebel-highend.de/en/company/research.html

The K-402 should be a step up from these when it comes to dynamics and with a better dispersion.

I'm going try to contact Roy Delgado about buying K-402. Last time I asked Klipsch about the 2-way Jubilee, it's like they were clueless to what I was talking about and said they only had the 3-way cinema version. Later I've read Roy is the one to talk to and hopefully I can get hold of him.

Next step is to find out what bass solution to use. I can always try JBL 2226 (bass reflex) to begin with. I have six of them. However, a bass bin is probaly an upgrade. Are there any drawings out there? I either need to drawings to hand over to a carpenter or buy something finished. I don't build myself.

I worked with Panacea Engineering, as a consultant, on a drone cone version of a "Jube-like" clone. It's about 1.5 inches taller than a standard Jubilee bass bin. I have AutoCAD plans for it, but I would have to get permission. You can get 3 12" drivers in there. We had a "Golden Jubilee" bin, built by one of Klipsch's most experienced craftsman to original specifications by PWK and commissioned by his wife, Valerie Klipsch to measure against. The improvement was maybe 1 db or so in the low end, so it was marginal. I was amazed at how good the original Jubilee was. Also, the back chamber was stuffed full of foam, unlike the Khorn or LaScala, or MWM, which have nothing in the back chamber.

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Bjorn, I'd say your are off to a good start with the JBL reflex bins and a K-402. Just don't tell Roy, as JBL is the major competitor for theater systems. OK?

That would be like telling my friends who work for Canon that I adapted old Nikon lenses to Canon Bodies........ouch. LOL

Edited by ClaudeJ1

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The most aspect for a bass bin for me is the response down to about 150-130 Hz. I don't care too much about what happens below that. The room modes takes over anyway and the best way besides treatment is using several multiple subwoofers.

Though I'm sure a bass reflex like JBL 2226 can work fine and is a nice starting point to try out the K-402, I'm guessing a folded horn bass is in another league. Using two 12" seems to give the best height for the K-402 horn and may be more then enough considering the horn loading. Getting something built rather buying the original has the advantage of using better/thicker material, more bracing and dampening (porous). I'll contact Panacea Engineering and I'm also very open to other suggestions. As good as possible and as cheap as possible.....

Another question I have:

Does the K-402 horn have any of the typical "horn sound"? Or does it sound completely natural? What I mean by horn sound is probably related to distortion and colouration from the mouth. I find many horns have this. An example is the Avantgarde speaker.

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The most aspect for a bass bin for me is the response down to about 150-130 Hz. I don't care too much about what happens below that. The room modes takes over anyway and the best way besides treatment is using several multiple subwoofers.

Though I'm sure a bass reflex like JBL 2226 can work fine and is a nice starting point to try out the K-402, I'm guessing a folded horn bass is in another league. Using two 12" seems to give the best height for the K-402 horn and may be more then enough considering the horn loading. Getting something built rather buying the original has the advantage of using better/thicker material, more bracing and dampening (porous). I'll contact Panacea Engineering and I'm also very open to other suggestions. As good as possible and as cheap as possible.....

Another question I have:

Does the K-402 horn have any of the typical "horn sound"? Or does it sound completely natural? What I mean by horn sound is probably related to distortion and colouration from the mouth. I find many horns have this. An example is the Avantgarde speaker.

I think you need to hear some Jubilee setups.

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The most aspect for a bass bin for me is the response down to about 150-130 Hz. I don't care too much about what happens below that. The room modes takes over anyway and the best way besides treatment is using several multiple subwoofers.

Though I'm sure a bass reflex like JBL 2226 can work fine and is a nice starting point to try out the K-402, I'm guessing a folded horn bass is in another league. Using two 12" seems to give the best height for the K-402 horn and may be more then enough considering the horn loading. Getting something built rather buying the original has the advantage of using better/thicker material, more bracing and dampening (porous). I'll contact Panacea Engineering and I'm also very open to other suggestions. As good as possible and as cheap as possible.....

Another question I have:

Does the K-402 horn have any of the typical "horn sound"? Or does it sound completely natural? What I mean by horn sound is probably related to distortion and colouration from the mouth. I find many horns have this. An example is the Avantgarde speaker.

As an owner of pretty much all the EV, JBL, Klipsch horns, etc. I can honestly say that the K402 is the least colored horn I have ever heard. It is truly Roy's masterpiece. Unlike living with all the rest over 5 years, I have not wanted to even try another. I'm amazed by it every day.

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What does a pair of Jublilee Bass bins Cost?

I think it's about $4,000 for a pair, but I'm not sure. Well worth it considering the time and material it takes to build them.

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Bjorn,

If you can get to Slough England (Just outside of London) or Cologne / Koln Germany, there are fine gents there that own Jubilee's and would probably love to show them off. The fine chap in Slough (Ralph) can / has ordered at least one pair for someone else who lives near London, I think his name is Sy (?).

These guys are right, hearing is believing.

Side comment per Claude's camera lens statement..... I see he's finally learned to operate a point & shoot camera, that's a good thing! Baby steps Claude, baby steps..... :P

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What does a pair of Jublilee Bass bins Cost?

I think it's about $4,000 for a pair, but I'm not sure. Well worth it considering the time and material it takes to build them.

I thought they were about $7k a pair, but that included the K402 and K69 driver.

You aren't part of the EU, but your currency probably does very well against our dollar right now.

Bruce

Edited by Marvel

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I can honestly say that the K402 is the least colored horn I have ever heard. It is truly Roy's masterpiece.

I completely agree, to me that 402 horn is a masterpiece, I love it.

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