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Bjorn

How good are The Jubilees today?

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I actually think they're overpriced. Yeah, I know, pretty funny coming from me. The build has been greatly simplified, and it's not like we're talking about a truckload of plywood here. The build doesn't appear to have anywhere near the complexity of the Klipschorn. The horn, while a very good performer, is an eyesore, and I can buy the driver that's used for peanuts. When you compare the total cost (without a network), it's way closer to a fully finished consumer Klipschorn than it should be. I've actually owned these, so I think I've earned the right to have this opinion. The somewhat "beautified" or lipstick on a pig versions cost even more. When I bought mine, which was quite a while ago -- the price was $2000 for the top sections and $4500 for the lowers, so $6500.00, and you still need whatever you are going to use network wise. I had roughly $900.00 into my passive networks, and I believe Rigma had an astronomical $3K. Active filtering is preferred by many, and I certainly have no objection to that, except to say that if you have to work within the confines of a real budget, you will be spending a lot of time convincing yourself that what you're hearing is better than what you had. I said a lot of things in the past that I shouldn't have said. I gave an enthusiastic thumbs up to the Crown xTi amplifiers and after three months couldn't get rid of them fast enough. As so often happens with any hobby, zeal takes over.

This loudspeaker is responsible for my total disdain for titanium loaded compression drivers. They lull you in with their bright, open and seemingly effortless sound, and then reward you with shortened listening sessions and headaches. After I sold mine, I spent a solid week reading about break-up modes and looking at distortion plots. I parked chairs over at the Altec Lansing and DIY Audio sites too, almost a must for the serious study of any topic. Many apparently agree with me, because the truly committed with the deep pockets wasted no time moving to the TADs. These guys are always quick to tell everyone how wonderful the K-69 is for the money. Are we talking the money Klipsch charges, or the money you can buy it for at most online retail outlets? Sorry, but that driver has no business being bolted to that horn. I don't know what costs more, the TADs or a lifetime supply of aspirin.

I think some of us have been cursed with the ability to notice every little thing. If a certain "little thing" just happens to be a little irritating, it begins to form the backdrop for everything you hear. This is very hard to explain with words. It's like a blister on your foot -- it's doesn't take much to ruin a nice walk in the park.

So, here is my bottom line assessment. Don't do this unless you're willing and have the means to see it through all the way. I wouldn't repeat this venture unless I had $15K to throw at the project. That means I do not agree with Tom regarding the importance of the driver in comparison to the horn. The driver and the horn constitute a system, and this combination covers everything from 500 to 20,000. Unless you can get the break-up modes out of the audible range, you will be disappointed. I almost forgot to mention -- regardless of what you end up using, the increased resolving power will render 90% of your media unlistenable, and I'm being gracious here.

It was my understanding that a cease and desist was to be delivered regarding the drone Jubilee. I for one will refuse to do business with anyone that doesn't respect the intellectual property of others.

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I always hesitate if I find myself about to disagree with Dean. He a is a capable guy and his opinion should be considered.

However, I disagree with Dean. I do not need to take aspirin after listening to my Jubilees. I do agree that any system can be improved by some competent tweaking. A better driver on the K-402 can make a difference, but I don't think the stock version is all that bad. It is a good horn.

Regarding their visual appeal, they are what they are and and the photos are not hiding anything. As for price, even with a user supplied crossover I can not think of a better sounding system for anywhere near the price. If you want to modify the factory version, then be my guest. I am interested in your results.

Again, good luck,

-Tom

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I've been trading email with Roy, he disagrees with me too. I sure hate being in that situation. :)

I'm being unduly harsh. Sorry everyone.

Edited by DeanG

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Some of us have heard the Jubilee with the 402 with many different drivers. I think starting out with the K69 it is still an amazing speaker for the money. As you move up in drivers and cost the benefits are there. I was happy with the B&C and BMS drivers and also some of the 3 way combos. The TADs are better. The difference between b&c to BMS to TAD were smaller improvements but hey still there. If you can afford it just do it.

Roy's 402/510 combo with stock drivers to me is still the best of the lot. This got me to thinking what if we took that combo and used higher end drivers. That is one thing I haven't heard. I wonder how much better that could be? Have any of you with these two horns tried it?

I recently had some long time heritage owners over for a long listening session. One of them just said "damn my khorns won't do that". I've become accustomed to the Jubs and sometimes forget that Roy and PWK knocked it out of the park with this combo. The top end is salt and pepper.

If you look at speakers new in the area of $7k and look at the Jubilee it is certainly a bang for the buck system.....even if it challenges some WAF.

Jubilees ROCK!

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Really great information here guys! As much as I love my heavily modified Khorns, I have always been intrigued by the Jubilees and the K402 horn. I got a chance to listen to 6foot8's 3-ways over 5 years ago and I came away with a lasting impression. I know I will own a pair one day.

Mike

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Thanks for the comments about K-402 and lack of coloration. That's reassuring.

Sure, listening to them would be nice. But quite honestly, I don' thinkt it's that important. I'm objective and believe measurements give me the answers I need. And where there's lacking measurements, like for instance regarding the question about 2-way vs 3-way and smoothness of the lens, I trust your feedback. The combination of those are good enough for me. I've two setups today and it was bought on measurements alone. I never listened to them before I purchased them. They are also the best setups I've had. Of course one need to know a little about the dispersion pattern and how it fits the room. But other then that I'll say; What measures good, sounds good too.

All feedback are welcome. So thanks DeanG. Very open and transparent speakers have the disadvantage of being very revealing of poor recordings. Still, I'm not too worried about it. I know from experience that the combination of getting an even response with separate bass units (and some lift too) and acoustic treatment largely takes care of that. Not saying it makes poor recordings become great, but they are much more enjoyable and less fatiguing when the system holds a high quality at all areas. The room and acoustic is vital here. I treat the room like a high quality studio with absorbents, reflectors, bass traps and diffusers. All based on measurements.

So maybe the listening fatigue you've experienced isn't solely related to the stock driver but a combination of that and other things. However, I'm planning using a beryllium truextent diaphragm like mentioned earlier. Take a look at this:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?28034-Geez-who-the-hell-needs-TAD

Edited by Bjorn

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Very open and transparent speakers have the disadvantage of being very revealing of poor recordings. Still, I'm not too worried about it. I know from experience that the combination of getting an even response with separate bass units (and some lift too) and acoustic treatment largely takes care of that. Not saying it makes poor recordings become great, but they are much more enjoyable and less fatiguing when the system holds a high quality at all areas. The room and acoustic is vital here. I treat the room like a high quality studio with absorbents, reflectors, bass traps and diffusers. All based on measurements. So maybe the listening fatigue you've experienced isn't solely related to the stock driver but a combination of that and other things.

Excellent response and something very few seem to factor in before forming their opinions..!

Bjorn you may have already read these threads but just in case here are the links if your interested.

KPT-KHJ-LF Fact Sheet

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/143631-jubilee-kpt-khj-lf-fact-sheet/?hl=%2Bfact+%2Bsheet

KPT-K402 Fact Sheet Note: you can see some polars plots for the K402 in this thread.

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/143514-k402-fact-sheet/?hl=%2Bfact+%2Bsheet

Bjorn I've heard the Jub/K402/Tad in the anechoic chamber and what is amazing is how well the polars are matched and controled from this system. Even if you walk behind the system the sound reproduction is impressively tonally balanced thanks to the K402's pattern control. The benefits of this capability in a real world listenng room and how the system integrates with the listening room due to this fact is again very impressive and rare among loudspeakers in my experience.

miketn

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Excellent mikebse2a3. I have seen the polar plots but not the facts sheet. Very interesting. I really like what Roy writes about constant coverage. That's been the goal of Don Keele's CBT design too but with a wider coverage angle. The result is a speaker that hardly changes around the room and the frequency response is very even down to schroeder. I have a pair of CBT36s. But gotta have the best horns too :-)

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loving my three way's, not perfect yet, but they 402/1133 and 520/k69A stock drivers are amazing. press the buy it now button.

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Hi guys. First post here. I have a lot of questions regarding the classic two-way Klipsch Jubilee speakers. Hope I can lure as many owners and those who know these speakers well out of the cave. Perhaps I'll be the first Jubilee owner in Norway :-)

Let me dive right into it and ask a few. Answer whatever you feel.

1. This is an old design. And I'm wondering if the K-402 holds up to more modern lenses. I've seen the polar plots of K402 and I'm impressed. But what is uncertain to me is how smooth it is compared newer OS waveguides (Geddes design) and for example JMLC horns. Anyway who have done a proper AB comparison or share info based on measurements?

2. Is the bass bin with two 12" as good as it get's for 12" sized drivers?

3. There's a lot of opinions regarding two-way vs. three-ways and many say a one driver splimpy can't cover suc a wide area with great result. I disregard deep bass here. Subwoofers are best for that anyway. But the question is if a 2" compression driver can cover the frequency range we're talking about here effortless with very low distortion or a going three-way with another tweeter is an upgrade. Obviously a crossover isn't perfect and one more will yield a worse polar response, but might it still be a better compromise? What's the experience here?

4. I see several upgradring from the stock driver to a TAD one. I'm not willing to buy a new TAD driver. I have however considered getting something like a JBL 2446 and change the diaphragm to a Truextent beryllium. Are there anyone who have tried this? It's certainly a lot cheaper then getting a TAD driver and may be just as good.

http://www.speakerrepair.com/page/product/Be4008.html

5. From what I understand the K402 can be bought alone. Are the either any certain designs for the bass bins out there or someone builds them cheaper then what Klipsch sell them for? It would also require setup/EQ for an active crossover. I assume there aren't any K402 clones, but let me know if there are.

1) The OS waveguides, SEOS, and Geddes stuff all have this weird bloom in the polars in the top octave....which really sounds disconnected to the rest of the passband that necks down just below in frequency and then slowly expands. The JMLC horns are not constant directivity and should have that characteristic sound as a result. As you've heard from the others, its not just the polars of the K402 that are so sweet....it's the complete lack of coleration. It doesn't sound like a typical horn - it sounds more like a direct radiator without the doppler distortion.

I would also add that the K402 measures better at 20kHz than the K510 in my opinion. However, I would make sure the driver you choose doesn't beam its HF polars to boost its on-axis response at the top octave. With a 2" horn, everything above 6.8kHz is dominate by the driver's phase plug. The TAD driver is awesome in every way, except you can hear that long snout - I personally prefer the sound of the BMS for that reason (although the BMS has its own ring radiator distortion to it that gives it some bite in the midrange). It really comes down to what artifacts bother you less.

2) I don't think so. I'd love to hear an unfolded equivalent....even if it didn't dig as low as the Jubilee. Since most studios xover to their subwoofer in the ~80Hz range (plus or minus), I think there is some value to replicating that in the home setup. Anyways, the reason the Jubilee LF is folded is so that you can get that bottom octave with an acceptable footprint. I think it is a better system compromise to have 20-80Hz covered with a potent subwoofer, and then have a straight-horn MF unit that covers 80Hz to 800Hz where the K402 can take over. Roy disagrees with me on that though...he thinks the folding is not a source of coloration in the Jub LF.

That said, I don't know of anything that exists like that - Klipsch has a midbass unit that comes close, but doesn't quite dig low enough...a 100Hz xover is too high for a direct radiator digging down to 20Hz. So this is more of an intellectual desire of mine that has not yet come to fruition as far as I know.

All that said, the Jub LF is still an awesome sounding piece - and that 40Hz corner (with a little extra EQ) can be quite authoritative...even to the point of most music not needing a subwoofer.

3) I don't see any engineering validation for going 3-way unless you think you're getting too much IMD from the K402 covering such a wide bandwidth. It seems like such a shame to give up that 2-way cohesiveness. SETI says it was unanimous that the K402/K510 combo was preferred....I guess there must have been another listening session because that was certainly not my impression. The K402 sounds better up top than the K510 in my opinion. I would sooner use two K402's for MF/HF than I would a K402/K510 combo :)

QSC made a 1" throat horn that I think outperforms the K402 in the top octave, but it can't dig anywhere near as low. It's super cheap too:

http://www.parts-express.com/qsc-pl-000446gp-replacement-waveguide-horn-for-hpr152i--245-625

I think it measures better than the SEOS/OS/JMLC horns too. I use a pair with BMS 4550 drivers.

4) Doesn't the JBL 2446 have a long snout on it too? It's been a while since I've held one in my hands. I personally would spend my time trying to find a driver with a better phase plug design.

5) I don't know of any alternatives that already exist. I'm currently working on a straight bass horn design that I want to run up to 1kHz with dual 12's. I'm stumped on how to design the phase plug section to ensure a clean smooth response up there, and I'm so busy with work that the last thing I want to do is more audio when I get home in the evenings. If I ever get around to completing it, I'll be sure to share it around the forum. I'd also love to be kept in the loop if you run across anything in your search.

Edited by DrWho

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Was I really the only one that day who preferred the three way version?

Sure, treating a room is important, but it can be overdone. So, if it makes bad recordings sound better, I guess that means we've reduced the resolving power of the system, right? :)

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Excellent mikebse2a3. I have seen the polar plots but not the facts sheet. Very interesting. I really like what Roy writes about constant coverage. That's been the goal of Don Keele's CBT design too but with a wider coverage angle. The result is a speaker that hardly changes around the room and the frequency response is very even down to schroeder. I have a pair of CBT36s. But gotta have the best horns too :-)

Keele gave a talk on the CBT at a Chicago AES meeting a while back.....I asked him how the distortion compared to the Klipsch K402 and he mentioned that you can do CBT with horns too.

Ten K402's per side? Now we're talking, haha.

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Sure, treating a room is important, but it can be overdone. So, if it makes bad recordings sound better, I guess that means we've reduced the resolving power of the system, right? :)

1/2 right and 1/2 Wrong.. :)

Treating the room properly isn't what makes the recording sound better it's the fact that the additional distortion due to the room's acoustical influence and the integration of the loudspeakers in any given room is optimized and thus the resolving power of the system is in reality improved and thus the recording was as can happen being blamed for worse sound than it actually had.

Treating the room improperly just adds to the distortion of the reproduction and reduces the resolution of the system.

miketn

Edited by mikebse2a3
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I treat the room like a high quality studio with absorbents, reflectors, bass traps and diffusers. All based on measurements.

I would be very interested to see some pictures of how you are treating your room if you would like to post them.

miketn

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Really great information here guys! As much as I love my heavily modified Khorns, I have always been intrigued by the Jubilees and the K402 horn. I got a chance to listen to 6foot8's 3-ways over 5 years ago and I came away with a lasting impression. I know I will own a pair one day.

Mike

Hey Mike, how's it going?

I hope you get some Jubilees some day, I think you'd really enjoy them. I enjoyed my experience with them.

Just so you know, having listened to both in my listening room, overall, I preferred your Khorns to my Jubilees. I have a very good Khorn room, which is necessary to get optimum results from the Khorn bass horn, and so I found the deep bass from the Khorn and how it filled the room all around me to be more satisfying than the in-your-face, PA type bass of the Jubilee. I can certainly understand how many people would be impressed with the authority of the Jubs though. Jubilees are much easier to integrate into any room that is big enough for them. Jubilees have much better upper bass (150Hz - 400Hz) than Khorns. But for non-horn-like midrange and extended high frequencies, I preferred my V-Trac horn and tweeter combination over the K402/K69 combo. I'm sure some of this was due to having less processing, wiring, amplifiers, and a simpler signal path.

I ran both passive and active, and even though I liked the sound of the passive better, I also liked tweaking the active setup.

Greg

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The most aspect for a bass bin for me is the response down to about 150-130 Hz. I don't care too much about what happens below that. The room modes takes over anyway and the best way besides treatment is using several multiple subwoofers.

Though I'm sure a bass reflex like JBL 2226 can work fine and is a nice starting point to try out the K-402, I'm guessing a folded horn bass is in another league. Using two 12" seems to give the best height for the K-402 horn and may be more then enough considering the horn loading. Getting something built rather buying the original has the advantage of using better/thicker material, more bracing and dampening (porous). I'll contact Panacea Engineering and I'm also very open to other suggestions. As good as possible and as cheap as possible.....

Another question I have:

Does the K-402 horn have any of the typical "horn sound"? Or does it sound completely natural? What I mean by horn sound is probably related to distortion and colouration from the mouth. I find many horns have this. An example is the Avantgarde speaker.

I have seen where the comment was made that the horn is more important than the driver. I would chip in and say that for me the Faital HF200 and the Eliptrac 400 makes a great tweeter combo. Using them with a 500 Hz crossover setup that is very easy to the ears, assuming good source material. BTW consider active crossover, but be watch the impedance matching in the chain. The horns are so damn efficient any noise is apparent.

I have not worked with or heard the K402, but Bob Crites is a creditable observer.

Brad

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1) The OS waveguides, SEOS, and Geddes stuff all have this weird bloom in the polars in the top octave....which really sounds disconnected to the rest of the passband that necks down just below in frequency and then slowly expands. The JMLC horns are not constant directivity and should have that characteristic sound as a result. As you've heard from the others, its not just the polars of the K402 that are so sweet....it's the complete lack of coleration. It doesn't sound like a typical horn - it sounds more like a direct radiator without the doppler distortion.

I would also add that the K402 measures better at 20kHz than the K510 in my opinion. However, I would make sure the driver you choose doesn't beam its HF polars to boost its on-axis response at the top octave. With a 2" horn, everything above 6.8kHz is dominate by the driver's phase plug. The TAD driver is awesome in every way, except you can hear that long snout - I personally prefer the sound of the BMS for that reason (although the BMS has its own ring radiator distortion to it that gives it some bite in the midrange). It really comes down to what artifacts bother you less.

2) I don't think so. I'd love to hear an unfolded equivalent....even if it didn't dig as low as the Jubilee. Since most studios xover to their subwoofer in the ~80Hz range (plus or minus), I think there is some value to replicating that in the home setup. Anyways, the reason the Jubilee LF is folded is so that you can get that bottom octave with an acceptable footprint. I think it is a better system compromise to have 20-80Hz covered with a potent subwoofer, and then have a straight-horn MF unit that covers 80Hz to 800Hz where the K402 can take over. Roy disagrees with me on that though...he thinks the folding is not a source of coloration in the Jub LF.

That said, I don't know of anything that exists like that - Klipsch has a midbass unit that comes close, but doesn't quite dig low enough...a 100Hz xover is too high for a direct radiator digging down to 20Hz. So this is more of an intellectual desire of mine that has not yet come to fruition as far as I know.

All that said, the Jub LF is still an awesome sounding piece - and that 40Hz corner (with a little extra EQ) can be quite authoritative...even to the point of most music not needing a subwoofer.

3) I don't see any engineering validation for going 3-way unless you think you're getting too much IMD from the K402 covering such a wide bandwidth. It seems like such a shame to give up that 2-way cohesiveness. SETI says it was unanimous that the K402/K510 combo was preferred....I guess there must have been another listening session because that was certainly not my impression. The K402 sounds better up top than the K510 in my opinion. I would sooner use two K402's for MF/HF than I would a K402/K510 combo :)

QSC made a 1" throat horn that I think outperforms the K402 in the top octave, but it can't dig anywhere near as low. It's super cheap too:

http://www.parts-express.com/qsc-pl-000446gp-replacement-waveguide-horn-for-hpr152i--245-625

I think it measures better than the SEOS/OS/JMLC horns too. I use a pair with BMS 4550 drivers.

4) Doesn't the JBL 2446 have a long snout on it too? It's been a while since I've held one in my hands. I personally would spend my time trying to find a driver with a better phase plug design.

5) I don't know of any alternatives that already exist. I'm currently working on a straight bass horn design that I want to run up to 1kHz with dual 12's. I'm stumped on how to design the phase plug section to ensure a clean smooth response up there, and I'm so busy with work that the last thing I want to do is more audio when I get home in the evenings. If I ever get around to completing it, I'll be sure to share it around the forum. I'd also love to be kept in the loop if you run across anything in your search.

Very much appreciateed DrWho.

I agree with you concern about Geddes waveguide. In a direct comparison with CBT36, the Abbeys sound colored. I believe the reason is a major difference between the directivity in the waveguide vs the driver below. With broadband treatment it's better, but it never sounds as good as the CBT36 which has a very uniform response all the way down to 160 Hz. I'm also surprised as a sidenote how much the Abbey lack in openness, energy and clarity in the top octaves compared to CBT36, despite the fact that the latter uses cheap insensitve dome tweeters. The difference is night and day.

The strength of the Geddes waveguide is in my opinion the smoothness and lack of any horn sound.

The JMLC is even smoother which the link below shows.

http://kolbrek.hoyttalerdesign.no/index.php/horns/bem

Like you mentioned though, the JMLC isn't a constant directivity horn. It beams a lot and one needs to make to a 3-way (or 4-way) to avoid too much of it. Some believe using an extra crossover isn't a problem with moden active crossovers but I disagree with that. Some also doens't see constant directivity (especiall in the highs) as important and believe we lack studies that support the idea. I'm quite certain though, that a constant directivty is vital. I'm planning to listen to JMLC setup in near future. They have become quite popular here.

What is exactly is a straight horn MF? That's something I could look into, knowing that I'm planning on using separate bass units anyway.

I've no clue whether the JBL 2446 has a long snout and will lead to more beaming. That's a factor I haven't considered a all. Basically because I wasn't aware of it... So another aspect that I need to take into consideration and any help are welcome. I assume with the BMS driver, one is stuck with it's diaphragm. Looks like the Truextent only can replace JBL and Radian drivers: http://www.speakerrepair.com/page/product/Be4008.html

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Excellent mikebse2a3. I have seen the polar plots but not the facts sheet. Very interesting. I really like what Roy writes about constant coverage. That's been the goal of Don Keele's CBT design too but with a wider coverage angle. The result is a speaker that hardly changes around the room and the frequency response is very even down to schroeder. I have a pair of CBT36s. But gotta have the best horns too :-)

Keele gave a talk on the CBT at a Chicago AES meeting a while back.....I asked him how the distortion compared to the Klipsch K402 and he mentioned that you can do CBT with horns too.

Ten K402's per side? Now we're talking, haha.

Yes. It's possible but if the CBT is going to have horns that function down to schroeder it becomes a PA system and not for a home. I will be huge. Just using horns for the tweeter, like someone proposed, beats the purpose of a uniform response over a wide area.

Don Keele is such a great guy by the way and we owe him a lot for his work.

Here's a picture of my former CBT setup.

post-57108-0-15340000-1386412435_thumb.j

Edited by Bjorn

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I treat the room like a high quality studio with absorbents, reflectors, bass traps and diffusers. All based on measurements.

I would be very interested to see some pictures of how you are treating your room if you would like to post them.

miketn

We can come back to that when I get the K402. It's basically the LEDE/RFZ concept when the room permits it. Be careful with googling it though. A lot of misunderstanding out there and wikipedia is completely off. The concept is mostly understood by those who have been affiliated with SydAudCon. That's were most studies on small rooms have come out of. Just like when it comes to speakers and drivers; Most has happened many years ago and there's little new under the sun.

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