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Bjorn

How good are The Jubilees today?

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A couple of quick points.

1. the JBL 2446 driver is not a "long snout" . The reason I recommend it is that in the US you can these on the used market at affordable prices.

2. Out of curiosity, what did you not like about the CBTs, (why did you move away from them)

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I haven't moved away from the CBTs. Just different placement then what picture showed, other subwoofers and soon I'll be getting a new room ready for them. I think they are awesome. Probably difficult to compare to a great horn like Jubilee. Both have their strengths.

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Very much appreciateed DrWho.

I agree with you concern about Geddes waveguide. In a direct comparison with CBT36, the Abbeys sound colored. I believe the reason is a major difference between the directivity in the waveguide vs the driver below. With broadband treatment it's better, but it never sounds as good as the CBT36 which has a very uniform response all the way down to 160 Hz. I'm also surprised as a sidenote how much the Abbey lack in openness, energy and clarity in the top octaves compared to CBT36, despite the fact that the latter uses cheap insensitve dome tweeters. The difference is night and day.

The strength of the Geddes waveguide is in my opinion the smoothness and lack of any horn sound.

The JMLC is even smoother which the link below shows.

http://kolbrek.hoyttalerdesign.no/index.php/horns/bem

Like you mentioned though, the JMLC isn't a constant directivity horn. It beams a lot and one needs to make to a 3-way (or 4-way) to avoid too much of it. Some believe using an extra crossover isn't a problem with moden active crossovers but I disagree with that. Some also doens't see constant directivity (especiall in the highs) as important and believe we lack studies that support the idea. I'm quite certain though, that a constant directivty is vital. I'm planning to listen to JMLC setup in near future. They have become quite popular here.

What is exactly is a straight horn MF? That's something I could look into, knowing that I'm planning on using separate bass units anyway.

I've no clue whether the JBL 2446 has a long snout and will lead to more beaming. That's a factor I haven't considered a all. Basically because I wasn't aware of it... So another aspect that I need to take into consideration and any help are welcome. I assume with the BMS driver, one is stuck with it's diaphragm. Looks like the Truextent only can replace JBL and Radian drivers: http://www.speakerrepair.com/page/product/Be4008.html

I heard a four way horn system that was composed of JMCL horns. The JMCL mid was very large circular and carved out of wood as was the tweeter. The drivers were goto. They sounded great. I could be happy with JMCL or tractrix. This was Jeffrey Jacksons system so it was very dialed in. Hard not to like the JMCL.

Here is the mid jmcl before install.

140LC+-+I.jpg

140LC+-+II.jpg

Edited by seti
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3) I don't see any engineering validation for going 3-way unless you think you're getting too much IMD from the K402 covering such a wide bandwidth. It seems like such a shame to give up that 2-way cohesiveness. SETI says it was unanimous that the K402/K510 combo was preferred....I guess there must have been another listening session because that was certainly not my impression. The K402 sounds better up top than the K510 in my opinion. I would sooner use two K402's for MF/HF than I would a K402/K510 combo :)

This was a long listening session at JC's with much nicer selection of amps and electronics than in Hope. Yes we did all agree that the 402/510 combo sounded best but we also said that we could be very happy with any of the other combinations two way or three way. There were no slouches but some were a little better than others. This included two way with 402 with Klipsch or BMS or B&C drivers. The other 3 way horns were Alk style trachorn with beyma baby cheeks and Greg Roberts take on it which was similar. The three way was what we all wanted to listen to at the end of the weekend. It was superb.

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3) I don't see any engineering validation for going 3-way unless you think you're getting too much IMD from the K402 covering such a wide bandwidth. It seems like such a shame to give up that 2-way cohesiveness. SETI says it was unanimous that the K402/K510 combo was preferred....I guess there must have been another listening session because that was certainly not my impression. The K402 sounds better up top than the K510 in my opinion. I would sooner use two K402's for MF/HF than I would a K402/K510 combo :)

This was a long listening session at JC's with much nicer selection of amps and electronics than in Hope. Yes we did all agree that the 402/510 combo sounded best but we also said that we could be very happy with any of the other combinations two way or three way. There were no slouches but some were a little better than others. This included two way with 402 with Klipsch or BMS or B&C drivers. The other 3 way horns were Alk style trachorn with beyma baby cheeks and Greg Roberts take on it which was similar. The three way was what we all wanted to listen to at the end of the weekend. It was superb.

I reread your post, and answered my own question.

Edited by duder1982

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Horns in wood are pretty. I love the classic TAD. Some of those JMLC lenses look like a donut on a stick though. Funny looking. And when we're talking about looks; Why don't we see the K402 in other colors or in glossy black? Below is a picture of JBL 2360 painted in grey.

post-57108-0-43620000-1386493697_thumb.j

Does anyone have a picture of the combination of K402 and K510? Also interested to hear what exactly was perceived as an improvement over K-402 alone

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Horns in wood are pretty. I love the classic TAD. Some of those JMLC lenses look like a donut on a stick though. Funny looking. And when we're talking about looks; Why don't we see the K402 in other colors or in glossy black? Below is a picture of JBL 2360 painted in grey.

attachicon.gifDSC00183.JPG

Does anyone have a picture of the combination of K402 and K510? Also interested to hear what exactly was perceived as an improvement over K-402 alone

I agree. I've been trying to talk someone into going chrome with the k402.

I would be telling a lie if I could remember the exact improvement as that was a few years ago. I remember being surprised as I expected to like one of the two way options or trachorn options the best. I really liked the hf dispersion of the baby cheeks. The room we were listening in was a good size. I'd like to hear a three way with two JMCL on top.

Here is an example I found on the forum. This also has the nice plate on front.

P1020693.JPG

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Thanks. It's sometimes difficult googling when you're not sure what you are looking for. So the K510 can simply be placed on the top. That's good to know.

We should have had Harman's speaker shuffler to do a proper blindtest. :)

200906_harman.jpg

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That might work for tall skinny speakers not sure how that would handle the tall and heavy klipsch pro corner horns lol...

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In my systems, once I added the 510 on top of the 402, it was clearly better than just the 402/TADs by itself. Bascially, I cut the TADs off at 6K and used the inexpensive Faital Pros on the 510 from 6k-20K. You simply can't get the same emphasis on the top end and such optimization out of the 402 like you can on the 402/510 combo. The 510 seems to focus the high end and deliver it with more emphasis. With the combo there is better separation as well..........it just sounds bigger and more real.

Using my processor I can run the setup as an MCM-3 (with 402/TADs 600-20K) or MCM-4 (402/510 combo) with the push of a button. So it's possible to do an almost instantaneous comparsion. It's not that close. The 4 is much better.

Edited by mark1101

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I actually think they're overpriced. Yeah, I know, pretty funny coming from me. The build has been greatly simplified, and it's not like we're talking about a truckload of plywood here. The build doesn't appear to have anywhere near the complexity of the Klipschorn. The horn, while a very good performer, is an eyesore, and I can buy the driver that's used for peanuts. When you compare the total cost (without a network), it's way closer to a fully finished consumer Klipschorn than it should be. I've actually owned these, so I think I've earned the right to have this opinion. The somewhat "beautified" or lipstick on a pig versions cost even more. When I bought mine, which was quite a while ago -- the price was $2000 for the top sections and $4500 for the lowers, so $6500.00, and you still need whatever you are going to use network wise. I had roughly $900.00 into my passive networks, and I believe Rigma had an astronomical $3K. Active filtering is preferred by many, and I certainly have no objection to that, except to say that if you have to work within the confines of a real budget, you will be spending a lot of time convincing yourself that what you're hearing is better than what you had. I said a lot of things in the past that I shouldn't have said. I gave an enthusiastic thumbs up to the Crown xTi amplifiers and after three months couldn't get rid of them fast enough. As so often happens with any hobby, zeal takes over.

This loudspeaker is responsible for my total disdain for titanium loaded compression drivers. They lull you in with their bright, open and seemingly effortless sound, and then reward you with shortened listening sessions and headaches. After I sold mine, I spent a solid week reading about break-up modes and looking at distortion plots. I parked chairs over at the Altec Lansing and DIY Audio sites too, almost a must for the serious study of any topic. Many apparently agree with me, because the truly committed with the deep pockets wasted no time moving to the TADs. These guys are always quick to tell everyone how wonderful the K-69 is for the money. Are we talking the money Klipsch charges, or the money you can buy it for at most online retail outlets? Sorry, but that driver has no business being bolted to that horn. I don't know what costs more, the TADs or a lifetime supply of aspirin.

I think some of us have been cursed with the ability to notice every little thing. If a certain "little thing" just happens to be a little irritating, it begins to form the backdrop for everything you hear. This is very hard to explain with words. It's like a blister on your foot -- it's doesn't take much to ruin a nice walk in the park.

So, here is my bottom line assessment. Don't do this unless you're willing and have the means to see it through all the way. I wouldn't repeat this venture unless I had $15K to throw at the project. That means I do not agree with Tom regarding the importance of the driver in comparison to the horn. The driver and the horn constitute a system, and this combination covers everything from 500 to 20,000. Unless you can get the break-up modes out of the audible range, you will be disappointed. I almost forgot to mention -- regardless of what you end up using, the increased resolving power will render 90% of your media unlistenable, and I'm being gracious here.

It was my understanding that a cease and desist was to be delivered regarding the drone Jubilee. I for one will refuse to do business with anyone that doesn't respect the intellectual property of others.

While this does sound a little harsh it does inject some reality into the topic. What's next is just MHO.

If someone said put a "sound pleasure" percentage on how much better than the Khorn bass bin you think the Jub bass bin is. I would say no more than 15-20% at most (stock vs stock). It's an incremental improvement that stands out, but it's no excuse to toss out your Khorns.

In fact, I have been to Cirgarbum's numerous times and I would wager that stock Jub bins might be 5% better (if that!) than his Khorn bins that he built back extensions on. They are almost Jubs. Very close. Totally awesome. Completely embarassed the Khorns I had that I thought were so great.

Now if you asked me to put a percentage on how much better the Jub top hat (K402) is compared to the Khorn or Lascala top hat...........I'd say 80% better. While the top and bottom combo of a Jub is outstanding...............IMHO the vast majority of the improvement over a Khorn is on the top..........not in the bass bin.

A khorn bass bin can be easily modified to come very close to a Jub bin. Easily......and awesomely!

There is nothing you can do with those old exponential horns.........horns of the past. Period.

We did numerous tests with the home made wooden tractrix horns.........Fasttrac, V-trac, Trachorn.............all very very good and a big improvement over the exponentials. But, not even close to the K402..........not even close. Not even on the same planet as the 402/510 combo.

I would take a K402 and a K69 for the rest of my life before having to get stuck with the old original Heritage exponentials or any wooden tractrix I've seen so far for that matter.

Again just MHO..........but lots of comparisons over the years to be able to say this.

Edited by mark1101

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In my systems, once I added the 510 on top of the 402, it was clearly better than just the 402/TADs by itself. Bascially, I cut the TADs off at 6K and used the inexpensive Faital Pros on the 510 from 6k-20K. You simply can't get the same emphasis on the top end and such optimization out of the 402 like you can on the 402/510 combo. The 510 seems to focus the high end and deliver it with more emphasis. With the combo there is better separation as well..........it just sounds bigger and more real.

Using my processor I can run the setup as an MCM-3 (with 402/TADs 600-20K) or MCM-4 (402/510 combo) with the push of a button. So it's possible to do an almost instantaneous comparsion. It's not that close. The 4 is much better.

Good to hear some feedback on this. The good thing here is that I can expand later. The K510 is also sold separately, right?

Guys, how can I can in touch with Roy Delgado directly? I've sent an e-mail to Klipsch and asking them to forward it to Roy, but haven't heard anything so far.

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Yes. However, you cannot buy the horn without the driver (at least, it used to be that way).

If you are ready to buy, contact Panacea Engineering.

Any and all data necessary to make an informed choice is already accessible. Roy is an insanely busy person - however, if you PM me your email address, I will let him know a sane and stable person want to ask a couple of things, and we'll see what he says. He generally doesn't have time for long drawn out email exchanges.

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I actually think they're overpriced. Yeah, I know, pretty funny coming from me. The build has been greatly simplified, and it's not like we're talking about a truckload of plywood here. The build doesn't appear to have anywhere near the complexity of the Klipschorn.

A side comment for casual readers (as I suspect what I'm about to say doesn't necessarily reflect what Dean was in my opinion, suggesting above)

From the viewpoint of someone who has to wrestle these things and build them, I'd agree that the build has been greatly simplified. I would also suggest that the build has been greatly improved upon.

I don't know if this will get me banished from mentioning Roy's name.... but here's the story.

I once made a joking comment about a support that was installed inside the bass bin. My comment was something like they must have really good painters there to miss that part entirely yet, get the surrounding part so completely. You can just see them on the inside of the bass horn.

Later, we got to talking a bit... I don't know if I had to force one or three "near-beer's' on him before he spilled all his secrets but here's what he told me.

(paraphrased from poor memory)

They ordered their plywood at (let's say) 3/4 inches plus/minus .1 inch variance. Again, I have no idea what the numbers are and for this comment, they are irrelevant, but the point isn't.

They had a complaint about an early Jubilee.... it had a terrible vibration.

Long story short, he started doing some checking and the vendor was supplying virtually all of their plywood at 3/4" MINUS the .1 inch variance so it was technically still in spec but, was at the lower end.

When a "thin" piece was randomly used as the big back panel, it suffered from a resonance that a 3/4" piece did not exhibit.

My guess is this is a bass unit that was an offender.

He put the supports in as a fix to the problem and now, none of the bass cabinets vibrate even if they have the thinner planks there.

I guess he didn't much care for that and wanted to somehow improve it.

Has anyone ever accused engineers of being retentive? :ph34r:

He came up with the "shelf" style brace and now all panels are supported all the way around. Problem solved.

My understanding is it's easier for the factory to build, saving time as well as being a stronger cabinet.

I personally would swap out my pair in a heartbeat for a newer style..... on top of the sonic benefits (mine don't exhibit any of the negative vibes) I think they simply look "right". I've always felt the little tab supports looked a bit like a cob job.

post-12967-0-97700000-1386621747_thumb.j

post-12967-0-52820000-1386622320_thumb.j

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I would take a K402 and a K69 for the rest of my life before having to get stuck with the old original Heritage exponentials or any wooden tractrix I've seen so far for that matter.

Again just MHO..........but lots of comparisons over the years to be able to say this.

Mark, I don't mean to put words into your mouth.... but for a casual reader, it might be interesting to them to know what you originally felt about the K402, especially as it compared to the Heritage sound.

Disclaimer: Although I think it was you who said what I'm thinking, it might not have been so if my memory isn't well served, I beg your pardon in advance.

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Yes. However, you cannot buy the horn without the driver (at least, it used to be that way).

If you are ready to buy, contact Panacea Engineering.

Any and all data necessary to make an informed choice is already accessible. Roy is an insanely busy person - however, if you PM me your email address, I will let him know a sane and stable person want to ask a couple of things, and we'll see what he says. He generally doesn't have time for long drawn out email exchanges.

So Roy isn't the one to talk for buying the K402? It's only Panacea Engineering offering them as well as the bass bin?

If that's case, I'm not sure I need to talk to Roy at all. I'm ready to order the K402. I'll look at alternatives for the bass bin though.

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If you're simply going to order a K402/69 (or other combo) you can simply call WC at Panacea.

Calling Roy would be nice but all he's going to do is put you in touch with a vendor. He can't & won't take your charge card.

Main reason to call him is for ordering a bass bin so he knows something different will be coming down the production line. I speculate that in the early days, he might have also called American Cinema (the vendor most have used) to give them a heads-up.

Since you aren't ordering the full system, I doubt it would matter. Just be clear with WC what you want to do so he'll know which part number to order. Even at that, Klipsch has sent more than one K402 with the stock K1133 driver on it instead of the ordered K69.

It will go fine for you. If there is a bump in the road, it will be fixed once it's discovered.

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Obviously a lot of things I don't know. And I thought it was hard to find about the existence of the Jubes....

What's the difference between K1133 and K69? Two different stock drivers for this speaker? Yeah, I'm a little confused.

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