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Bjorn

How good are The Jubilees today?

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Unless you can get the break-up modes out of the audible range, you will be disappointed. I almost forgot to mention -- regardless of what you end up using, the increased resolving power will render 90% of your media unlistenable, and I'm being gracious here.

It was my understanding that a cease and desist was to be delivered regarding the drone Jubilee. I for one will refuse to do business with anyone that doesn't respect the intellectual property of others.

I can't speak as a "full Jube" owner, but I have heard and measured several. I agree about moving the breakup modes out of the audible range, which is why I use a Klipsch MANUFACTURED driver called a K-1133, designed specifically for the K-402. It's breakup modes occur above 10 Khz. and I cross mine over at 4 Khz. to a super tweeter that uses a mylar diaphragm. When used this way, a Titanium diaphragm has a far better sound than a phenolic diaphragm because it's much lighter and stiffer for PURE midrange application and NOT trying to Shelve/PEQ the crap out of it by boosting it 12 db in it's region of diaphragma resonance.

Any device can be misused and called bad. They should be used "properly" and for what they do best.

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Excellent mikebse2a3. I have seen the polar plots but not the facts sheet. Very interesting. I really like what Roy writes about constant coverage. That's been the goal of Don Keele's CBT design too but with a wider coverage angle. The result is a speaker that hardly changes around the room and the frequency response is very even down to schroeder. I have a pair of CBT36s. But gotta have the best horns too :-)

I heard the CBT's in Chicago about 4 months ago. They were in a large auditorium at Shure during an AES meeting. Lots of power and twin subs. they were impressive at what they did, but I thought they were being pushed a bit hard and could have been cleaner. How do they sound in a home and how are you driving them?

Edited by ClaudeJ1

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1) The OS waveguides, SEOS, and Geddes stuff all have this weird bloom in the polars in the top octave....which really sounds disconnected to the rest of the passband that necks down just below in frequency and then slowly expands. The JMLC horns are not constant directivity and should have that characteristic sound as a result. As you've heard from the others, its not just the polars of the K402 that are so sweet....it's the complete lack of coleration. It doesn't sound like a typical horn - it sounds more like a direct radiator without the doppler distortion.

2) I don't think so. I'd love to hear an unfolded equivalent....even if it didn't dig as low as the Jubilee. Since most studios xover to their subwoofer in the ~80Hz range (plus or minus), I think there is some value to replicating that in the home setup. Anyways, the reason the Jubilee LF is folded is so that you can get that bottom octave with an acceptable footprint. I think it is a better system compromise to have 20-80Hz covered with a potent subwoofer, and then have a straight-horn MF unit that covers 80Hz to 800Hz where the K402 can take over. Roy disagrees with me on that though...he thinks the folding is not a source of coloration in the Jub LF.

All that said, the Jub LF is still an awesome sounding piece - and that 40Hz corner (with a little extra EQ) can be quite authoritative...even to the point of most music not needing a subwoofer.

3) I don't see any engineering validation for going 3-way unless you think you're getting too much IMD from the K402 covering such a wide bandwidth. It seems like such a shame to give up that 2-way cohesiveness. SETI says it was unanimous that the K402/K510 combo was preferred....I guess there must have been another listening session because that was certainly not my impression. The K402 sounds better up top than the K510 in my opinion. I would sooner use two K402's for MF/HF than I would a K402/K510 combo :)

QSC made a 1" throat horn that I think outperforms the K402 in the top octave, but it can't dig anywhere near as low. It's super cheap too:

http://www.parts-express.com/qsc-pl-000446gp-replacement-waveguide-horn-for-hpr152i--245-625

I think it measures better than the SEOS/OS/JMLC horns too. I use a pair with BMS 4550 drivers.

4) Doesn't the JBL 2446 have a long snout on it too? It's been a while since I've held one in my hands. I personally would spend my time trying to find a driver with a better phase plug design.

5) I don't know of any alternatives that already exist. I'm currently working on a straight bass horn design that I want to run up to 1kHz with dual 12's. I'm stumped on how to design the phase plug section to ensure a clean smooth response up there, and I'm so busy with work that the last thing I want to do is more audio when I get home in the evenings. If I ever get around to completing it, I'll be sure to share it around the forum. I'd also love to be kept in the loop if you run across anything in your search.

1) As owner of K-402's I agree about lack of coloration.

2) I'm building a pair of bass horns that don't need corners (but fit there nicely) and are good from 57-600 Hz. They only have one fold that is only about 45 degrees with a 90 degree dispersion angle. It will cross to the 402 somewhere between 320 and 400 hz. A staight axis horn would stick out of the corner about 6 feet, which I don't have room for.

3) I was also one of the people who preferred the 3-way because of the 400 Hz. Xover rather then 500 Hz. for the two way at the same listening session you attended, Mike. Also I am using the QSC horn you speak of with a B&C 1" driver DE-250. It looks just like a "mini-me" K-402 and has the same dispersion angle. I have to have a tweeter because the K-1133 dives at about 5,000 Hz., so I'm crossing at 4,000.

no comment on 4) and 5).

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Was I really the only one that day who preferred the three way version?

Sure, treating a room is important, but it can be overdone. So, if it makes bad recordings sound better, I guess that means we've reduced the resolving power of the system, right? :)

Nope. I preferred the 3-way also, and that is what I have put together.

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Horns in wood are pretty. I love the classic TAD. Some of those JMLC lenses look like a donut on a stick though. Funny looking. And when we're talking about looks; Why don't we see the K402 in other colors or in glossy black? Below is a picture of JBL 2360 painted in grey.

attachicon.gifDSC00183.JPG

Does anyone have a picture of the combination of K402 and K510? Also interested to hear what exactly was perceived as an improvement over K-402 alone

I agree. I've been trying to talk someone into going chrome with the k402.

I would be telling a lie if I could remember the exact improvement as that was a few years ago. I remember being surprised as I expected to like one of the two way options or trachorn options the best. I really liked the hf dispersion of the baby cheeks. The room we were listening in was a good size. I'd like to hear a three way with two JMCL on top.

Here is an example I found on the forum. This also has the nice plate on front.

P1020693.JPG

this is my pic and that's my front wall after I've cleaned up the room. When you order the three way versions, it comes with a mounting plate for the 510 off of the 402. I ordered my gear from American Cinema under the advice of Roy. When ordering you can specify a finish on the front.

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Excellent mikebse2a3. I have seen the polar plots but not the facts sheet. Very interesting. I really like what Roy writes about constant coverage. That's been the goal of Don Keele's CBT design too but with a wider coverage angle. The result is a speaker that hardly changes around the room and the frequency response is very even down to schroeder. I have a pair of CBT36s. But gotta have the best horns too :-)

I hard the CBT's in Chicago about 4 months ago. They were in a large auditorium at Shure during an AES meeting. Lots of power and twin subs. they were impressive at what they did, but I thought they were being pushed a bit hard and could have been cleaner. How do they sound in a home and how are you driving them?

CBT36 sound cleaner then anything I've had and heard. Haven't compared them with a top notch horn, but like perviously mentioned they blow away Geddes Abbey with it's B&C DE250 driver. I'm using Hypex Ncore amps with 200W. One for the tweeters and one for the midrange/woofer. I assume Don Keele was running them with Crown amps. I doubt they are as good as Hypex Ncore. Filling an auditorium with CBT36 might be difficult anyway. But one could use more sensitive drivers. There's a CBT36XL from Audioartistry on the way that does that and Selah Audio has different versions.

http://www.hypex.nl/product/2012-11-23-13-41-35/nc400.html

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Richard have you read the Jub LF Fact Sheet where Roy clearly states why they did the new build and how the performance had to be identical to the old build style?

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/143631-jubilee-kpt-khj-lf-fact-sheet/?hl=%2Bfact+%2Bsheet

Heading to work so didn't open link.

I don't know if I've read it or not however, regardless of that document, it doesn't change the conversation I had with him. I think his goal was to fix the problem on his terms and while so doing, keep the bass bin up to standard.

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Excellent mikebse2a3. I have seen the polar plots but not the facts sheet. Very interesting. I really like what Roy writes about constant coverage. That's been the goal of Don Keele's CBT design too but with a wider coverage angle. The result is a speaker that hardly changes around the room and the frequency response is very even down to schroeder. I have a pair of CBT36s. But gotta have the best horns too :-)

I hard the CBT's in Chicago about 4 months ago. They were in a large auditorium at Shure during an AES meeting. Lots of power and twin subs. they were impressive at what they did, but I thought they were being pushed a bit hard and could have been cleaner. How do they sound in a home and how are you driving them?

CBT36 sound cleaner then anything I've had and heard. Haven't compared them with a top notch horn, but like perviously mentioned they blow away Geddes Abbey with it's B&C DE250 driver. I'm using Hypex Ncore amps with 200W. One for the tweeters and one for the midrange/woofer. I assume Don Keele was running them with Crown amps. I doubt they are as good as Hypex Ncore. Filling an auditorium with CBT36 might be difficult anyway. But one could use more sensitive drivers. There's a CBT36XL from Audioartistry on the way that does that and Selah Audio has different versions.

http://www.hypex.nl/product/2012-11-23-13-41-35/nc400.html

Thanks for the link. I really like the company's design philosophy and their products look like they are well packaged and modular in nature. Do they export to the US?

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I haven't moved away from the CBTs. Just different placement then what picture showed, other subwoofers and soon I'll be getting a new room ready for them. I think they are awesome. Probably difficult to compare to a great horn like Jubilee. Both have their strengths.

I am planning on building some CBT's, but will wait for the new kits. It is difficult to move from a range of 100(subs) to 106-110 db/watt efficiency of an all horn system top to bottom with spoiler/ridiculously low distortion and incredible transient response. But if one looks at the sheer number of motors vs. small, stiff, metal cones of those direct radiator drivers, it would seem that this type of design would come closest to horns in terms of dynamics.

So I would prefer a newer version with more efficient drivers to nudge me closer to horn perfomance rather than the 99% world of direct radiator speakers that mostly bore the heck out of me.

Either way, while the CBT may "attempt to come close," I doubt that anything direct radiating, can beat a K-402 horn in the dynamics department, no matter how many motors are used, but I could be wrong.

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Yes. Hypex exports to the US. A lot of happy american customers:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=197.0

Ncore is basically a wire. Distortion is below what's audible in probably every aspect. We don't need class A and "heaters" anymore!

I think waiting for a CBT with more effecient drivers is wise. I'm personally uncertain how important sensitivity is in the very highs. Most likely there aren't any music with a sudden jump in that region, because that would burn up many tweeters. And with many tweeteers (144) the thermal modulation and compression is most likely almost non existent. As seen below the CBT36 can also play very loud if it get's the power.

post-57108-0-45980000-1386696219_thumb.p

However, I still think higher effiency would mean something here. My subjective experience with the CBT36 is that dynamics is better in the lower region, where the sensitivity is higher then in the very highs. It does seem to lack some of the transient response like the best horns have in the treble. Some of that could of course also be related to more focused energy, diffcult to say for sure. Simply better quality of drivers is another factor. But yeah, go for a more efficient CBT to be on the sure side.

Below is a prototype that is probably be very similar to the coming CBT36XL. Using high quality ribbon tweeters could maybe push the performance higher if one has enough space for a very tall speaker (the CBT design seem to work better with many drivers). One could also build a CBT as a one way speaker and improve the horizontal polar further, but it would probably need to be crossed over to something separate fairly high.

post-57108-0-70380000-1386696632_thumb.j

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DeanG said, " almost forgot to mention -- regardless of what you end up using, the increased resolving power will render 90% of your media unlistenable, and I'm being gracious here.

As a Jubilee owner I have to say this is my only complaint with these speakers.. All the warts & recording engineers goofs stand out big time with the K402. Hopefully the media producers will soon start producing a product up to par with our playback systems. Have only heard the 402 with the Tad driver so have no comparison with the other drivers.

What ever your choice J.C. at Panacea Eng. is your man, he will treat you right.

Cornman

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So many cool things, so little time.

http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/TPL150HE.pdf

I just invested in some old ESS AMT-1A. I replaced the woofers and put new foam on the passives. It's a bit boomy in the bass but that tweeter is heavenly. I can only imagine what it's like with a horn on it. My goodness!

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""Our imaging and timbre perceptions are nearly dominated by the sound above 1 kHz. The musical content, the rythm, etc. are carried by those frequencies below 1 kHz, but our "perception" is inordinately weighted by the response above 1 kHz. There is a very good reason for this psychoacoustically, and it has to do with the way the nureons fire in the ear (an interesting topic in and of itself, but the important point to note is that we process sound differently above and below about 1 kHz).

So getting the 1 kHz. and up right is paramount to a good perception of coloration and imaging. I feel that far too little attention is paid to this critical region in the market place because it is here that we see all kinds of problems and yet it is here that we should be the most concerned." Dr. Earl Geddes, June 2007.

This is why I found another pair of ESS Heil AMT tweeters on Ebay and got them. In my concrete basement, I got incredible 3D imaging from the AMT-1A's so I'm building a better box with those tweeters which will cross at 1Khz.. These are either bi-pole or di-pole radiators with a symmetical "bowtie" short conical horn as viewed from the top. The transient response is better then my horn tweeters and even though they are 12 db less efficient, they are 21 square inches of area in those "accordion pleats" so distortion under a few more watts is still low. Not to mention ruler flat response and 4 ohm resistive load.

Who knows, they may end up on top of my 402's at some point. Perhaps it's no co-incidence that the genius of Don Keele, who revolutionized horn design when he wrote his famous paper "What's so sacred about Exponential Horns?"

There's gotta be a reason he has promoted the underwater CBT technology on the surface for over 10 years, manifested in the Audio Artisry's CBT kit.

Edited by ClaudeJ1

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Does anyone have the frequency response of the Jubilees? Only seen the polars.

This is corner loaded with K-69 driver on K-402 horn.........the 2-way. This can be made pretty flat to 30 Hz. with an additional boost at 32 Hz. without adding appreciable distortion, since below the 38 Hz. horn cutoff, the twin woofers still operate as direct radiators in a sealed box into a very tight corner load, even though they are not, effectively, horn loaded at that point.

post-20774-0-77340000-1386718097_thumb.j

Edited by ClaudeJ1

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Thanks. Is this an anechoic measurement? Active cross over? And what smoothing has been used?

The dip at 300 Hz is quite broad and looks troublesome, but if it's an in room measurement it can be room related.

Edited by Bjorn

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Thanks. Is this an anechoic measurement? Active cross over? And what smoothing has been used?

The dip at 300 Hz is quite broad and looks troublesome, but if it's an in room measurement it can be room related.

Yes, yes, no smoothing.

The dip occurs because of the non expansion of the horn in the vertical plane, so I've read elsewhere.

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Hmmm. I didn't like that dip. It's too broad to be considered inaudible and it's in a very important region. There must be a possible improvement over the original bass bin here. Two bass reflex woofers would probably be more even but would in return have lower sensitivity, maybe higher over all distortion and probably not have the same phsysical experience as horn bass. I wonder what is the ideal bass bin solution. Especially if on doesn't care about going deep, since one will use separate units for that, there hopefully would be something better. But what?

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My memory is getting bad.....was that the full anechoic measurement? The dip is much less when corner loaded.

We listened to a quad fifteen against this horn and it still couldn't keep up in the distortion department. That's something I still haven't wrapped my head around.

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