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Bjorn

How good are The Jubilees today?

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I have to say, and that is a very personal experience, the decay or to say the stop characteristics of the TAD are a weak point. Listening to the FaitalHF200 e.g. to a Guitar played with a Fender tremolo amp shows more dynamics and impact. OK the Faital may not be the last word on drivers with it's titanium diaphragma but regarding the stop ability beryllium can be topped.

Dr. Who once had posted an article about an exploration of all existent diaphragma materials. If I can find it I will post it. I'm wondering if Kepton is the best for any future developments.

Did you find that article?

I'm bit surprised a titanium diaphragm would be better then beryllium.

Do most people here find that the Jubilees are revealing in such a matter that poor or medium recordings become fatiguing listening to for a period of time? I hope to experience the opposite, where the speakers sound more effortless and less fatiguing.

I believe this is the thread being referenced:

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/138408-driver-comparison-for-the-k-402-horn/page-7?hl=diaphragm#entry1556950

The interesting photo comes from the DIY Audio forum:

attachicon.gifWavelet_Diaphragm_Materials.jpg

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/166312-waveguides-horns-52.html (Post #514)

The photo is actually showing less ringing with Mylar versus Beryllium. The downside is these Mylar drivers are going to be slightly higher distortion due to their construction: pick your poison.

That said, Beryllium actually is a harder material per mass so it could theoretically be better. Here's a paper on that subject (and it also shows an ideal wavelet):

http://almin.memberclicks.net/assets/Documents/WinterSymposia/InvitedPapersWS2011/m.buck-beryllium%20domes%20for%20large%20compression%20drivers-alma%20ws%202011.doc.pdf

To your other question....have you heard Khorns? I find that they can become fatiguing - especially with poor recordings. For years I've read people claiming this is the cost of accuracy, but I'm not sure I buy that argument anymore. I visited Heinz last July and we listened to his Jubilees with all sorts of music streamed off the internet - which is typically worse than a 128kbit mp3. The music was actually quite enjoyable - but of course great source material was in a league of its own. I believe he had the TAD drivers on his system at the time.

I get to listen to several fully horn loaded systems pretty regularly. The poorer recordings are an issue. When I start to think a system just sounds like crap I grab a well mastered and recorded cd or lp and I'm reminded how good they sound.

I have had several experiences with internet streamed music being very enjoyable. This has had me very perplexed. I have wondered if the quality has improved or I have wondered what has changed.

I can go to my very old mp3 archive and listen to all bit rates and they are predictable as to what sounds good.

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Bjorn, did you order a pair.

Not yet. Several reasons:

- Difficult finding a retailer that can a price with shipping. Bit dissapointed here with Panacea Engineering who only seemed to be willing to give a shipping quote when I was 100% ready to order

- Been occupied with christmas

- Having a few doubts or considering something else too. Namely a CBT horn speaker or a better CBT design. Seems like Don Keels is working on something

He invited me to his CBT presentation at the Chicago AES and gave me his card. I live about 1 1/2 hours from his house. I'm hoping to get over there to see what he's up to.

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Do that and report back what's happening. Perhaps you also get to compare CBT36 with CBT36XL.

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I think either way shipping these 402's are going to cost you a few $ more because of your location,. As suggested shipping overseas will need a crate. Good luck.

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A small update. I contacted the norwegian dealer over the phone. They didn't know what I was talking about, but asked me to send them an e-mail with explanation and they would look into to it. I did that 9 days ago and haven't received a reply. I have asked Klipsch for help and they said they would forward the email to someone who may help with international sale. Not sure what that means, but so far haven't heard anything.

I also contacted Roy Delgado over a month ago, but never got a reply.

Hmmm. Is God trying to tell me I'm not suppose to get the K402 horns? :mellow:

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A small update. I contacted the norwegian dealer over the phone. They didn't know what I was talking about, but asked me to send them an e-mail with explanation and they would look into to it. I did that 9 days ago and haven't received a reply. I have asked Klipsch for help and they said they would forward the email to someone who may help with international sale. Not sure what that means, but so far haven't heard anything.

I also contacted Roy Delgado over a month ago, but never got a reply.

Hmmm. Is God trying to tell me I'm not suppose to get the K402 horns? :mellow:

You may want to speaker with Ralph in the UK.

__________________

http://www.artisanaudio.co.uk

01494-858471

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Has anyone tried out the EV ND6X neo compression drive in a Jubes setup. I'm told it is very impressive but haven't seen any write-ups/comments on its use. Looks good on paper but is very expensive (as most of these drivers are).

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Has anyone tried out the EV ND6X neo compression drive in a Jubes setup. I'm told it is very impressive but haven't seen any write-ups/comments on its use. Looks good on paper but is very expensive (as most of these drivers are).

Not sure if the TS specs for the Jubilee woofer have been posted here. Comparing them would be a good place to start.

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Has anyone tried out the EV ND6X neo compression drive in a Jubes setup. I'm told it is very impressive but haven't seen any write-ups/comments on its use. Looks good on paper but is very expensive (as most of these drivers are).

Strangely, when many folks here are presented the opportunity to upgrade their compression drivers, they balk, but then think nothing of spending similar or greater amounts on tube electronics. In other words, they economize poorly in terms of increasing their SQ. I find that most here want to spend approximately 10x on their electronics rather than speakers. Unfortunately, that's 180 degrees out if SQ is the goal. There just isn't a substitute for good compression drivers, horns, and horn-loaded bass bins. You can DIY on the bass bins, but everything else is "dollars = SQ", IMHO. I agree that economizing should be used whenever possible, but...

So what you see is a lot of rationalizing on using cheap compression HF drivers and then trying to justify that they sound "as good as" more expensive drivers.

YMMV.

Chris

Edited by Cask05
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Has anyone tried out the EV ND6X neo compression drive in a Jubes setup. I'm told it is very impressive but haven't seen any write-ups/comments on its use. Looks good on paper but is very expensive (as most of these drivers are).

Strangely, when many folks here are presented the opportunity to upgrade their compression drivers, they balk, but then think nothing of spending similar or greater amounts on tube electronics. In other words, they economize poorly in terms of increasing their SQ. I find that most here want to spend approximately 10x on their electronics rather than speakers. Unfortunately, that's 180 degrees out if SQ is the goal. There just isn't a substitute for good compression drivers, horns, and horn-loaded bass bins. You can DIY on the bass bins, but everything else is "dollars = SQ", IMHO. I agree that economizing should be used whenever possible, but...

So what you see is a lot of rationalizing on using cheap compression HF drivers and then trying to justify that they sound "as good as" more expensive drivers.

YMMV.

Chris

I believe the ND6X is a 1.4" exit so you'll need to figure out an adapter to mate to the 2" throat of the K402.

Ditto Chris' comments about putting the money into the speakers. Even the cheap electronics these days can sound quite good with great speakers. In fact, I might even argue that the better the speaker, the less you 'need' to spend on the electronics. Of course that's not to downplay the benefit of a really good source, but I personally would have a hard time picking the right flavor of amplifier / preamp / whatever before finalizing the speaker. And if you start with a better speaker, then you will be able to more greatly appreciate the differences in the upstream equipment. The speaker is the window through which you're listening to your amps/preamps - the dirtier that window, the less likely you are to pick the better looking car on the other side...or whatever window analogy you want to use.

Has anyone come across any measurements of the ND6X?

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Has anyone tried out the EV ND6X neo compression drive in a Jubes setup. I'm told it is very impressive but haven't seen any write-ups/comments on its use. Looks good on paper but is very expensive (as most of these drivers are).

Strangely, when many folks here are presented the opportunity to upgrade their compression drivers, they balk, but then think nothing of spending similar or greater amounts on tube electronics. In other words, they economize poorly in terms of increasing their SQ. I find that most here want to spend approximately 10x on their electronics rather than speakers. Unfortunately, that's 180 degrees out if SQ is the goal. There just isn't a substitute for good compression drivers, horns, and horn-loaded bass bins. You can DIY on the bass bins, but everything else is "dollars = SQ", IMHO. I agree that economizing should be used whenever possible, but...

So what you see is a lot of rationalizing on using cheap compression HF drivers and then trying to justify that they sound "as good as" more expensive drivers.

YMMV.

Chris

I believe the ND6X is a 1.4" exit so you'll need to figure out an adapter to mate to the 2" throat of the K402.

Ditto Chris' comments about putting the money into the speakers. Even the cheap electronics these days can sound quite good with great speakers. In fact, I might even argue that the better the speaker, the less you 'need' to spend on the electronics. Of course that's not to downplay the benefit of a really good source, but I personally would have a hard time picking the right flavor of amplifier / preamp / whatever before finalizing the speaker. And if you start with a better speaker, then you will be able to more greatly appreciate the differences in the upstream equipment. The speaker is the window through which you're listening to your amps/preamps - the dirtier that window, the less likely you are to pick the better looking car on the other side...or whatever window analogy you want to use.

Has anyone come across any measurements of the ND6X?

I'm adding two more to the list of people that GET IT. I remember the lead sales guy at my Klipsch dealer back in the 70's sharing his frustration with me concerning the average customer. He could take a the bottom of the line Japanese 25W/ch receiver (only two channels back then) on a pair of LaScalas and clearly demonstrate the sonic superiority of that combination in terms of low distortion and higher output. But, most people being part of the "power race" at the time, still opted for a 300 Watt Crown amplifier with Heresy's because they were convinced that more power was better. He thought that was really stupid.

PWK also used to make fun of what he called the "customary amplifier to speaker ratio (in dollars)" in the "Ultimate LSH Speaker" Dope from Hope that made fun of the whole thing.......tongue in cheek.

The average self-proclaimed audiophile has it all backwards. We all need to spend time/money on the ROOM, then the SPEAKERS, then the amplification. Much like we are supposed to love people and use things, yet many do the opposite. Funny world, but I just live in it.

Edited by ClaudeJ1

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Under Klipsch Pro cinema section there are several speakers that uses a KPT-402-MF horn. Is KPT-402-MF exactly the same as the K402 horn?

http://www.klipsch.com/kpt-445-n

http://www.klipsch.com/3-Way

IMHO, since I use a 1" throat B&C DE-250/QSC waveguide as tweeter on top of my K402/K1133, I would say all you need is the K703 for home use as a tweeter (something not available two years ago when I put mine together). Remember that the Output requirements of firing thought a huge projection screen into a huge theater space are many times greater than what you will ever need in a home, even if you are a DB freak like some of the people here who shall remain nameless.

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Under Klipsch Pro cinema section there are several speakers that uses a KPT-402-MF horn. Is KPT-402-MF exactly the same as the K402 horn?

http://www.klipsch.com/kpt-445-n

http://www.klipsch.com/3-Way

IMHO, since I use a 1" throat B&C DE-250/QSC waveguide as tweeter on top of my K402/K1133, I would say all you need is the K703 for home use as a tweeter (something not available two years ago when I put mine together). Remember that the Output requirements of firing thought a huge projection screen into a huge theater space are many times greater than what you will ever need in a home, even if you are a DB freak like some of the people here who shall remain nameless.

Can't see that answered what I asked about.

Again; Is the KPT-402-MF horn exactly the same as the K402 horn in Jubilee? KPT-402-MF and K402 are two different names.

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Under Klipsch Pro cinema section there are several speakers that uses a KPT-402-MF horn. Is KPT-402-MF exactly the same as the K402 horn?

http://www.klipsch.com/kpt-445-n

http://www.klipsch.com/3-Way

IMHO, since I use a 1" throat B&C DE-250/QSC waveguide as tweeter on top of my K402/K1133, I would say all you need is the K703 for home use as a tweeter (something not available two years ago when I put mine together). Remember that the Output requirements of firing thought a huge projection screen into a huge theater space are many times greater than what you will ever need in a home, even if you are a DB freak like some of the people here who shall remain nameless.

Can't see that answered what I asked about.

Again; Is the KPT-402-MF horn exactly the same as the K402 horn in Jubilee? KPT-402-MF and K402 are two different names.

Yes they are the same, but perhaps used a little differently in the stack, depending on crossover settings. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

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PWK also used to make fun of what he called the "customary amplifier to speaker ratio (in dollars)" in the "Ultimate LSH Speaker" Dope from Hope that made fun of the whole thing.......tongue in cheek.

The average self-proclaimed audiophile has it all backwards. We all need to spend time/money on the ROOM, then the SPEAKERS, then the amplification. Much like we are supposed to love people and use things, yet many do the opposite. Funny world, but I just live in it.

I have great news for you. I just found this in the garage sale section. Check out how they are rating the power on these receivers:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B7X2OTY/ref=cm_cr_ryp_prd_ttl_sol_0

pretty much useless.

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I have great news for you. I just found this in the garage sale section. Check out how they are rating the power on these receivers:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B7X2OTY/ref=cm_cr_ryp_prd_ttl_sol_0

pretty much useless.

You are too funny. First of all, I doubt those power ratings are done with all channels driven. Maybe just R and L, since the power supplies are not as beefy as they should be. Second, pretty the "standard wattage" for solid state amplifiers has centered around about 100 Watts per channel for a long time, plus or minus 3 DBwatts (from 50-200 WPC), which this receiver falls into that category along with 99% of modern AVR's.

100 Watts is 20 DBwatts of power. Since the average non-Klipsch speaker efficiency out there is probably 86-92 db/W at one meter, Most people don't crank their sound system that loud and 80-85 db at the sweet spot is just fine on the First Watt, considering all channels driven by 1 W each. My all-horn stakcs use about 1/100th of a watt for the same level.This still leaves lots of headroom for 99% of users out there. If you want it louder, get high efficiency speakers, not more power. It's better to buy 10 db more efficiency and use the same, ample, power, than it is to look for pre-outs and 1 Kilowatt of power, which is still what most people do.

The more things change the more they stay the same. I'm sure there are more people out there with big Multi channel amps that are over 1,000 watts total driving 5 Heresys (subs probably have their own 500 Watt plate amp in each cabinet) than there are with ALL Horn system driven by the cheapest AVR they can find. All of the have the same industry standard processors for movie sound tracks anyhow. When I had my full MWM "stack" along with a LaScala center and 4 Peavey SP-1 Mk III 2-way horns, I don't think I ever used more than 1 W per channel when cranking blockbuster movies (except the DR subs at the time), using the cheapest 5.1 used receiver I could find for less than $200. But most wives or girlfriends would never allow that kind of system in their living rooms, even though it is the lowest distortion option. The more things change the more they stay the same.

the old rule still applies, which is why it's physics and not opinion.

Edited by ClaudeJ1

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Under Klipsch Pro cinema section there are several speakers that uses a KPT-402-MF horn. Is KPT-402-MF exactly the same as the K402 horn?

http://www.klipsch.com/kpt-445-n

http://www.klipsch.com/3-Way

IMHO, since I use a 1" throat B&C DE-250/QSC waveguide as tweeter on top of my K402/K1133, I would say all you need is the K703 for home use as a tweeter (something not available two years ago when I put mine together). Remember that the Output requirements of firing thought a huge projection screen into a huge theater space are many times greater than what you will ever need in a home, even if you are a DB freak like some of the people here who shall remain nameless.

Can't see that answered what I asked about.

Again; Is the KPT-402-MF horn exactly the same as the K402 horn in Jubilee? KPT-402-MF and K402 are two different names.

They all use the exact same horn lens: the difference is the driver mounted on it. There are several drivers that come on this horn:

K1133

K1132

K69

B&C DE75

Am I missing any others? I can never remember if the K1133 or 1132 digs lower, and then the other one goes higher.

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Under Klipsch Pro cinema section there are several speakers that uses a KPT-402-MF horn. Is KPT-402-MF exactly the same as the K402 horn?

http://www.klipsch.com/kpt-445-n

http://www.klipsch.com/3-Way

IMHO, since I use a 1" throat B&C DE-250/QSC waveguide as tweeter on top of my K402/K1133, I would say all you need is the K703 for home use as a tweeter (something not available two years ago when I put mine together). Remember that the Output requirements of firing thought a huge projection screen into a huge theater space are many times greater than what you will ever need in a home, even if you are a DB freak like some of the people here who shall remain nameless.

Can't see that answered what I asked about.

Again; Is the KPT-402-MF horn exactly the same as the K402 horn in Jubilee? KPT-402-MF and K402 are two different names.

They all use the exact same horn lens: the difference is the driver mounted on it. There are several drivers that come on this horn:

K1133

K1132

K69

B&C DE75

Am I missing any others? I can never remember if the K1133 or 1132 digs lower, and then the other one goes higher.

The last digit tells the story. The 1133 is for 3-way, so it works about an octave lower than 1132 (300-5Khz.) so it needs a tweeter. I cross my 1133 at 320 Hz. and 4500 hz. The 1132, can get into the tweeter range via a different phase plug, which needs to work an octave higher also needs High Shelving in the active network.

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