How much poer do I need for Klipschorns?

[RAFellows]

Hi, I'm new to Klipschorns. They are highly efficient and not much power is required for high db, I get that. However, I'm putting together a 5.0 HT system and I'll also be using it just for plain old 2.0 stereo. I'm using the KHorns for the mains and La Scala's for the center and surrounds for the 5.0 system (for both music and Video surround sound). I'm looking at using the Emotiva UPA-700 which is rated at 80 watts per each of 7 channels. I'd bi-amp the mains using all 7 channels.

My question is: Is 80 watts per channel going to be enough to provide the head room required for both music AND movies? Do I really need more power like using 7 mono-blocks like the Emotiva XPA-100 which are rated at 250 watts?

[jcmusic]

I am not familiar with the amp you are speaking of but, you can run Khorns with 1 watt of clean power.. So the answer would be yes 80 watts is more than enough!!!

[NBPK402]

Eighty watts per channel should be enough.

[Taz]

Welcome

Never have turned mine up that loud. Ever. Just don't feel like I'd like it too much.

Now the Shop speakers a different story!

[psg]

80W is more than enough. KHorn and 3 La Scala? Sweet! You'll want a horn-loaded sub to make an all-horn-loaded HT system!

How are you going to biamp KHorns?

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Welcome to the forum. 80 wpc of clean power should be fine. Are you going to use a sub?

Don't get too excited about Bi amping. Unless the amp is a monoblock or draws its current supply from separate power supplies and caps, it is most likely not going to make more power by bi amping. That is why you see amps rated for 2 channel and then for 5.1 or 7.1 separately.

[LarryC]

80W is more than enough. KHorn and 3 La Scala? Sweet! You'll want a horn-loaded sub to make an all-horn-loaded HT system!

How are you going to biamp KHorns?

80 W seems like a good figure. I like the 100 W/channel I have on mine. I don't think you'd benefit from bi-amping, though, unless you want to insert equalization or time delays. My feeling is not to mess with it.

Noise can be an issue if the amplifiers are too powerful or have too much gain. Noise can come from preamp circuitry, especially if boosted by high amplifier or high electronic crossover gain. Level controls on the amplifier inputs can help control this.

[RAFellows]

@psg - I'm using the ALK Universal crossover which allows the woofer section to be powered separately from the squawker & Tweeter. Last night I ordered the Emotiva UPA-700 which has 7 channels, so I'll use 4 for the mains (2 each) which leaves 3 for the Center & Surround LaScala's. BTW - I'm putting the Surrounds back at about 135° equal distant with the center channel at about 8' from the sweet spot.

@tigerwoodKhorns - No, I'm going to try it without the sub at first and just go with a 5.0 setup. I can always add one later.

I probably won't have it all done until next summer, just collecting the parts now.

Thanks everyone for your advice.

[CECAA850]

Noise can be an issue if the amplifiers are too powerful or have too much gain. Noise can come from preamp circuitry, especially if boosted by high amplifier or high electronic crossover gain. Level controls on the amplifier inputs can help control this.

That's true. i've heard more than one complaint about hiss with Emotiva amps and very sensitive speakers like K-Horns.

[RAFellows]

@CECAA850 - I'll let you know when I get the amp. Due on 12/12. Ratings from their website, and backed up with Audio Precision test results, is THD + noise: <0.01%, SNR >97db @ 1 watt, >116 db at rated power. Power rating 80w per each of 7 channels into 8 ohms. 100w per channel into 4 ohms. Dampening factor (8ohm) >500.

Should be pretty quiet if the preamp is.

Pretty impressive specs for an amp selling for $499. Christmas price special of $429.

[CECAA850]

I hope it works out well for you.

[LarryC]

@CECAA850 - I'll let you know when I get the amp. Due on 12/12. Ratings from their website, and backed up with Audio Precision test results, is THD + noise: <0.01%, SNR >97db @ 1 watt, >116 db at rated power. Power rating 80w per each of 7 channels into 8 ohms. 100w per channel into 4 ohms. Dampening factor (8ohm) >500.

Should be pretty quiet if the preamp is.

Pretty impressive specs for an amp selling for $499. Christmas price special of $429.

You may have missed my point. Every electronics unit has thermionic noise, so it's a noise magnification, i.e., a gain issue. Many preamps locate the volume control somewhere in the middle of the total circuit, for example, between the phono and the line stages. In this setup, neither the gain nor the noise of the line stage is attenuated.

Now, if you combine this higher level signal AND noise with a high-efficiency speaker, both that signal and the noise will be maginfied to higher levels.

Now, if you put a high-gain amplifier between the preamp and the speaker, both the signal and the noise can be raised to VERY high levels.

In my modest experience, it can be bad news to combine a preamp with high line stage gain (like the older CAT's 26 db); a high-power, high-gain amp (like 0.5 volts in for 200 watts out); and 104 db high-efficiency K-horns.

I had to fight electronic noise for years, until I finally got a preamp with only 4 db (!) line stage gain and a low 2.5 v in for 100 watts out.

Integrated amps don't seem to have this problem, btw.

Edited December 22, 2013 by LarryC

[twistedcrankcammer]

Hi, I'm new to Klipschorns. They are highly efficient and not much power is required for high db, I get that. However, I'm putting together a 5.0 HT system and I'll also be using it just for plain old 2.0 stereo. I'm using the KHorns for the mains and La Scala's for the center and surrounds for the 5.0 system (for both music and Video surround sound). I'm looking at using the Emotiva UPA-700 which is rated at 80 watts per each of 7 channels. I'd bi-amp the mains using all 7 channels.

My question is: Is 80 watts per channel going to be enough to provide the head room required for both music AND movies? Do I really need more power like using 7 mono-blocks like the Emotiva XPA-100 which are rated at 250 watts?

RAFellows,

The new amp should be fine, but you can always upgrade to more power later. I have Klipsh TSCMs wich are Pro Klipschorns that are even more sensitive than K-Horns as they are 106dB/1 meter?/1 Watt and also louder as well, and I use 225 watts on my center and 200 watts on all other channels. The bigger amp will give you more headroom and help with authority on your Bass with your K-Horns and LaScalas for both music and movies.

Roger

[bobdog]

80 watts should be plenty, but Khorns deserve a better amp IMHO. The other thing is, and this is not my opinion alone, You absolutely need a subwoofer (one capable of very high output) for home theater.

[captmobley]

You need at least 1.5 watts! That's what I'm using for my 2 channel system-Welborne 45 DRD tube monoblocks into Khorns. I have the Khorns switched through a Niles amp switch to use also as fronts for my home theater and power them with a Pioneer Elite 92thx processor through an Emotiva LPA-1 amp. I can't hear any hiss. 80 watts will be plenty of power. In my opinion, Emotiva builds first rate gear.

[Sancho Panza]

How much poOrer do you need TO BE for Klipschorns?

$9K New

c. $2K Used...but, I understand that just the tip of the iceberg.l

[seti]

I ran 3wpc 8wpc 30wpc on Khorns and Belles which all sounded great. Medium sized room max listening 102-104db normal listening about 90-93db. Khorns don't need much power at all.

[garyrc]

Hi, I'm new to Klipschorns. They are highly efficient and not much power is required for high db, I get that. However, I'm putting together a 5.0 HT system and I'll also be using it just for plain old 2.0 stereo. I'm using the KHorns for the mains and La Scala's for the center and surrounds for the 5.0 system (for both music and Video surround sound). I'm looking at using the Emotiva UPA-700 which is rated at 80 watts per each of 7 channels. I'd bi-amp the mains using all 7 channels.

My question is: Is 80 watts per channel going to be enough to provide the head room required for both music AND movies? Do I really need more power like using 7 mono-blocks like the Emotiva XPA-100 which are rated at 250 watts?

Although it is perfectly possible to drive Klipschorns with 1 or 2 watts of power, that's not enough for some of us in larger rooms, with questionable taste and demanding program material -- mostly movies -- but also some very high dynamic range orchestral music. I have been running Klipschorns with 150 watts per channel, with a Belle Klipsch center (similar to La Scala), and Heresy II surrounds. The dynamics continue to amaze us.

Here is my advice:

• You may need about 130 (or more) watts if your room is larger than 4,500 cu ft, and you listen from about 15 feet (or more) away from the Klipschorns. That's my situation. The Klipschorn has been measured to have anywhere from 105 dB @ 1 Watt @1 Meter, all the way down to 98 dB @ 1 watt @1 meter, depending on who is measuring it, and whether it is measured (probably inapropriately) using AES standards in an anechoic chamber, or, as it should be, in a corner, either in Klipsch's special anechoic chamber with a corner built in, or in a real room, in a corner. Even 98 dB is very efficient. But let's take the most conservative method, to build in a safety factor, and some headroom. 128 watts into a single Khorn, at 16 feet away, in my room, will provide a little more than 110dB sound pressure at the listener's ears. At Reference Level for modern movies, the loudest SPL from a single main channel is 105 dB, so 110 dB would give you 5 dB headroom above Reference, in case you unwittingly have the movie running at above Reference Level. So far, so good. But the movie industry may push the special effects (LFE) up to 115 dB, at Reference, from the listening position. That intense sound is meant to go to a subwoofer, and that's one of the many reasons to use a good subwoofer. IMO, this is much more important than bi-amping.
• The reason for getting a powered subwoofer is that the movie people assign astonishing loud sounds, without warning, sometimes reaching down below the bass extension of (even) Klipschorns to the special subwoofer output. You will either miss these Low Frequency Effects (LFE), or if your preamp allows it, pump them into the Khorns, conceivably causing damage. If you have a subwoofer, the LFE can go directly to it, with the effects (LFE) low pass filter (LPF) set fot the movie standard of 120 Hz. Meanwhile you can use bass management to send the lowest musical material to the sub also, to mix with the LFE, instead of having it go to the Khorns. Klipschorn owners often try various crossovers from the THX and Audyssey recommended 80 Hz, on down to 40 Hz or lower. Khorns are so good at reproducing transients that they make most subwoofers look sick, within the Khorn's relatively smooth range. Some Khorns have a little dip at 70 Hz, others do not. Most roll off at 35 Hz and below, although you can measure some response as low as about 25 Hz. A few people set the Khorns to LARGE on their preamp/receivers, and set their subs to LFE + MAIN. In certain rooms, with certain speaker layouts, from certain listening positions, this can provide intense, clean bass, without much phase cancellation. In most people's situations, though, it doesn't work very well, partly due to too much phase cancellation.

[derrickdj1]

That's true. i've heard more than one complaint about hiss with Emotiva amps and very sensitive speakers like K-Horns.

I am going out on a limb but, I think most of the problems are with their Generation one amps.

[J M O N]

I've run SET 2A3 mono-block amps (3.5 Watts per channel) on KHorn fronts in a HT setup with satisfying results. Explosions and such were quite loud. Volume was not an issue. Biggest concern was if I was going to bother the neighbors.

Edited December 8, 2013 by JMON