DeanG RF-7ii (From Start to Finish)

[dtel]

I wasn't trying to rush you at all, I would guess it's going to take a good bit more time listening to really hear the differences, and trying to compare from memory makes it even harder.

[Deang]

You tend to notice more things as you move through your recordings. Favorite passages tend to jump out at you since there is usually an emotional connection associated with them.

So, I did a simple part for part replacement. There was one minor change, I used a 3.3uF with a .47uF film and foil bypass capacitor in place of the 3.65uF. So we are .12uF off the target value but still within 5%, and I think we can all agree that it is very unlikely that this small difference accounts for the change in sound that Michael is experiencing. All other values were spot on.

I used Dayton Audio metallized polypropylenes, which are rebranded Bennics. All of these capacitors were bypassed with Dayton Audio film and foils. Yes, I believe bypassing works. Resistors were replaced with Mills non-inductive types. The resistors actually cost more than the capacitors. The Dayton capacitors are entry level, but sound very nice. When bypassed, things smooth out nicely and they take on a nice creamy quality that belies their price. The new capacitors will certainly bump up the level of refinement, and this is anything but subtle, and very easy to hear. Mills claims that their resistors have a characteristically "warm sound". I strongly agree, and believe there is no better resistor for Klipsch modification work.

Consider that most will put the perceived changes down to placebo, and will insist that if done under controlled conditions with a stock loudspeaker, no differences would be heard. I believe that this an insult to one's sensibilities - the changes are real. The problem lies within the testing methods, as beautifully explained by Mark Deneen (see my DBT page). To say that Michael really isn't hearing differences is, well... stupid. I will soon be fighting the same battle with my Charge Coupled builds, and never-mind the fact that five different people reported the same type improvements using almost identical language.

You will notice how the burden always falls to the listener who hears, and never to the listener who has convinced himself that differences don't exist. Michael should not be hearing any differences whatsoever, and yet here we are.

Richard Marsh once told me, "...new capacitors are a little cranky, you might want to give them 10 - 20 hours before evaluating their performance."

Edited April 7, 2014 by DeanG

[ZombieWoof]

+1 Dean on the above post ,

I feel that there are persons who have a trained ear , much like a Symphony Conductor who with a life long of leading a orchestra can tell exactly which one of his musicians is playing outta time or is not hitting his notes correctly .

I'm always amazed at the birders that can tell the different song birds apart to my untrained ear the birds mostly sound the same .

training & experience refines one's perception , there is no measuring that can differentiate a person with a higher perception over another .

[dtel]

Consider that most will put the perceived changes down to placebo, and will insist that if done under controlled conditions with a stock loudspeaker, no differences would be heard.

Well I doubt that people would say that if they actually tried it instead of just talking about it.

My listening habits are casual not critical or trained in any way and my hearing is surely nothing to brag about. But just hearing the difference with just new caps alone, nothing else, was very surprising.

I don't know how anyone could not hear a difference, the difference for me was more of what I'm not hearing.

Edited April 7, 2014 by dtel

[ZombieWoof]

dtel I'd say you have a self trained ear through years of listening on your Klipsch

[beeker]

In my opinion with all due respect to klipsch oem. I have owned both the stock rf7 and rf7ii. With using many different amps, trial and error I found my rf7&ii's to be a good theater speaker only in stock oem form(so much i feel they should of gotten them Lucasfilm THX certified to provide what i find limitations in the stock oem form rf7&ii musicality are on the other hand good theater monitors in stock form). When it comes to music the rf7&ii in stock form lacks what i have found not to be acceptable. Now please dont throw rotton stuff at me. I find the only way to get the rf7ii up to the task of optimum musicality and great theater sound reproduction is to obtain the " Dean G crossover ".

[toolz]

Youthman and DeanG, very informative thread. Thanks for taking the time to enlighten all of us.

[Deang]

Mark B, no offense, but I've never understood that argument. Movie soundtracks have a lot music and dialog. Don't we want the music to sound less brash/harsh with better deal and articulation from all channels -- especially the center channel? Trey Cannon of Klipsch once told me (and a few others) that the visual experience reduces the expectations somewhat when it comes to the auditory experience. People seem to be more forgiving and not as critical when it comes to soundtracks, and we can see that in your post.

dtel, I'm going to guess that you're talking about replacing old capacitors that have reached the end of their useful life. Yes, that's very noticeable, and that difference is almost shocking. But here, I replaced perfectly good parts, I mean, the parts I replaced were practically new. Conventional wisdom would say there shouldn't be any difference at all.

Edited April 7, 2014 by DeanG

[Youthman]

My listening habits are casual not critical or trained in any way and my hearing is surely nothing to brag about......I don't know how anyone could not hear a difference, the difference for me was more of what I'm not hearing.

Sounds like you had a similar experience as I did. I too would classify myself as a casual listener. I'm glad to hear that your experience was similar to mine. Maybe my hearing isn't as bad off as I thought. haha

[Youthman]

I wasn't trying to rush you at all, I would guess it's going to take a good bit more time listening to really hear the differences, and trying to compare from memory makes it even harder.

I didn't feel rushed at all....I just figured folks would want to know what my initial impressions were. Glad to share them.

[dtel]

dtel, I'm going to guess that you're talking about replacing old capacitors that have reached the end of their useful life. Yes, that's very noticeable, and that difference is almost shocking. But here, I replaced perfectly good parts, I mean, the parts I replaced were practically new. Conventional wisdom would say there shouldn't be any difference at all.

Your right it was old original capacitors and it was shocking. Your right, I wasn't considering Youthmans parts were almost brand new but even with that and conventional wisdom, almost anything can be improved by better parts.

For anyone wondering if you should update your old original caps, Yes it does easily make enough difference in sound quality to be one of the first things to upgrade, if you do nothing else replace the caps.

Like many I was not sure and had doubts since it was working and I thought it sounded good, but to me the difference was really shocking.

Edited April 7, 2014 by dtel

[dtel]

....I just figured folks would want to know what my initial impressions were.

Well they did, I would guess, but everyone knows when listening to something new you hear an initial change, but it is not always easy to understand what it is your really hearing that's actually different and do it quickly.

An initial impression is nice but it's not really fair to expect any more quickly.

[Youthman]

I will give another review after a few weeks of listening to them and see if what I hear then is what I heard initially.

[Deang]

By then you'll just be used to the new sound and you won't care anymore. The initial impression along with the first week is where you notice the changes because you'll go to your favorite CDs, movies, and concert discs -- the things you are most familiar with. After a month you won't care about the difference anymore, you'll just be enjoying it.

[Thaddeus Smith]

By then you'll just be used to the new sound and you won't care anymore. The initial impression along with the first week is where you notice the changes because you'll go to your favorite CDs, movies, and concert discs -- the things you are most familiar with. After a month you won't care about the difference anymore, you'll just be enjoying it.

I think that's where I'm at now. These days I just turn everything and settle into some music and a big smile.

[Marvel]

By then you'll just be used to the new sound and you won't care anymore. The initial impression along with the first week is where you notice the changes because you'll go to your favorite CDs, movies, and concert discs -- the things you are most familiar with. After a month you won't care about the difference anymore, you'll just be enjoying it.

That's when we think we want something new, Dean. We get used to the way our system sounds and have forgotten how absolutely wonderful our speakers really sound. It becomes common for us. I think that is the difficulty we all face.

Really, I don't want to change anything, but then I start to think... could it be better...

Nice initial review, Michael. Can't wait to hear after some more listening.

Bruce

[Heritage_Head]

By then you'll just be used to the new sound and you won't care anymore. The initial impression along with the first week is where you notice the changes because you'll go to your favorite CDs, movies, and concert discs -- the things you are most familiar with. After a month you won't care about the difference anymore, you'll just be enjoying it.

That's when we think we want something new, Dean. We get used to the way our system sounds and have forgotten how absolutely wonderful our speakers really sound. It becomes common for us. I think that is the difficulty we all face.

Really, I don't want to change anything, but then I start to think... could it be better...

Nice initial review, Michael. Can't wait to hear after some more listening.

Bruce

This is really true in this hobby. No matter how awesome it will become the norm.

[Deang]

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Edited April 8, 2014 by DeanG

[dtel]

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Direct, straight to the point, no , a man of few words, punctual, no nonsense that's all I can think of for now, spot on.

[rbrown0678]

.press wrong button woops