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Youthman

DeanG RF-7ii (From Start to Finish)

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I never answered you question about timber. To paraphrase a saying about pornography I can't define timbre but I know it when I hear it. The best way I've found to see if speakers are timbre matched or not is to use pink noise. Each speaker has a certain sound. It's not hard to tell which speakers are matched and which ones aren't.

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It's semantics, and really, words don't always do a very good job of accurately conveying what we're hearing. I went through a gear changeout frenzy a little over five years ago because I got tired of trying to figure out what people were talking about. It was easier just to buy some stuff on the used market and listen to it for myself.

I think maybe you're right though. If it sounds "different", it's "different". I guess that's the best way to approach it.

Edited by DeanG

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Maybe my hearing is shot, but with auto EQ I really don't hear a difference or much of a difference using the RC 64 with My RF 7's. The 64 center was made for the RF 83 and 63 towers. Either way, I am keeping it, shot ears and all. :P

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How are those B2's coming?

did you go for the diamond studded platinum plated titanium battery upgrade?

Had to settle for Cubic Zirconia.

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timbre matching is WAY OVER rated... simply because you can identify it doesn't by the fact your ears can hear the difference doesn't mean it's necessarily a negative attribute.

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For a lot of movie watching, you're correct. If most of the info is coming out the center channel, no issues. If the sound is pretty much coming out of all three ft speakers, no problems. If the sound pans from one side to the other, like a slow moving car/horse, or any other type of pan, it's very noticeable. At least to me it is. My wife??? She'd never know. I guess it all depends on how engrossed you are into the soundtrack.

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timbre matching is WAY OVER rated... simply because you can identify it doesn't by the fact your ears can hear the difference doesn't mean it's necessarily a negative attribute.

I guess it depends on what we are talking about. If we are talking about any one speaker in our front soundstage sounding different than the other two it would be a problem, imo. That said, I actually wonder how much difference there is in any of these speakers and if mix-n-matched would there be positive and negative attributes people could pick up without knowing which speaker was which. One thing we can all agree on--dean's crossovers are going to look better than what came out of those RF-7IIs. :)

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Don't count on it. If I have do bizarre stuff to get things to fit right, they could easily end up looking like Franken-networks. They just showed up, but I can't play just yet - I have to finish Carl's second B2, and get some other work racked and stacked.

Please don't bash the stock networks. It's a little bit of over - spill, it doesn't mean anything. Klipsch loudspeakers respond so favorably to this kind of stuff because they sound phenomenal to begin with. You should see what my stuff looks like when I get carried away with the glue gun.

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...I guess it all depends on how engrossed you are into the soundtrack.

Think about that statement within the context of some of the discussion in the 2 - channel section lately.

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timbre matching is WAY OVER rated... simply because you can identify it doesn't by the fact your ears can hear the difference doesn't mean it's necessarily a negative attribute.

I guess it depends on what we are talking about. If we are talking about any one speaker in our front soundstage sounding different than the other two it would be a problem, imo. That said, I actually wonder how much difference there is in any of these speakers and if mix-n-matched would there be positive and negative attributes people could pick up without knowing which speaker was which. One thing we can all agree on--dean's crossovers are going to look better than what came out of those RF-7IIs. :)

I agree... it can matter and does matter to most.

I do recognize that there are timbre differences in every speaker system, and in a lot of instances... vast differences, but my ref center has become "fairly" seamless with my cornwalls with the application of a little creative EQ'ing. It surely was not seamless right out of the box and would never be if I ran my EQ flat.

I have to emphasis the word "Fairly" in relation to seamless... and more so now that Deans work has cleaned up and focused my CW's.

Edited by Schu

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Back from my snowboarding trip. :D Dean, I hope you are enjoying working on the RF-7ii crossovers. Looking forward to hearing how they sound after you finish the upgrade.

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The glue isn't any big deal, I've used far more, and it doesn't always go where you want it to. Since the air cores aren't tied down, I hope they used a lot. Every RC-7 I ever worked on had capacitors hanging by their leads because enough adhesive wasn't applied. PCB work is a little different than point-to-point work on a board. Still, there should at least be an attempt made at keeping it where it belongs.

I know my website isn't great, but I do wish more people would read the information that I put out there. I will probably post a handful of pictures of what I do, but it won't be a step by step, and I won't be listing the values. One of the biggest mistakes I ever made was listing the values and parts for the RF-7 upgrade. For every guy who is qualified to do the work, there are a hundred who aren't. Since I listed the values, or gave them up in email, many felt I was somehow obligated to walk them through the process, or to tell them what to do when they screwed something up. If your first question is: "what are the values", then that tells me that you don't know how to read what's clearly written on the part. Looking at it from my point of view, do you think a question like that makes me think you're qualified to do this kind of work? Here is a short list of the nightmare stuff I've had to put up with over the years.

1) Running a screwdriver into the high pass coils while trying to remove the red/orange oval epoxy coated capacitors.

2) Using too much heat and lifting the foil off of the board.

3) Not using enough heat, and staying on the pad so long that they ruined the part.

4) Not being able figure out where to put the parts. My personal favorite is not situating a part correctly, and then finding that the top board no longer drops down correctly.

5) After telling me they were an EE and could solder the space shuttle together, they emailed several days later and told me they couldn't get the solder to flow.

6) Should I use a 15 watt soldering iron or a soldering gun that has two settings (a zillion watts and a gazillion) watts.

7) I know you said not to mess with the coils, but I bought bigger ones -- where do you think I should put them (I couldn't bring myself to typing the answer).

8) I bought a solder sucker, and it doesn't work.

9) The leads won't reach. With several (RF-5, RB-75, etc), you have to drill holes though the board, scratch through the coating down to the foil, and create a new solder pad).

On and on it goes. Keep in mind that while these emails are coming in, I'm supposed to be in the workroom doing stuff for people who are actually paying me for my time. And yes, I'm the reason Al took down is DIY section. He started running into issues of his own and I told him the only way to avoid them is to pull his designs. He had a secondary motivation that I won't go into.

Buying the right tools alone approaches the cost of most of the work I do.

Can you tell that this is sore spot with me? I was burned so many times by this stuff that I just decided I would no longer support the DIY efforts of others. OTOH, Bob Crites has had great sucess with his kits, but like I said, the point-to-point stuff is a bit different than PCB work.

Here's what I love about all of this: a person will freak out over the thought of having a professional do it, but won't think twice about whipping out the old soldering gun and going at it wearing a blindfold.

End rant. Sorry.

Dean,

Let me say first I'm sorry if I offend you or anyone else before the rest of my post. If you're not going to tell us what you did/are doing what is the point of this thread? Are you just going to replace all the stock caps with Audyn Plus of the same values? I can read and I am not an IDIOT. I accept full responsibility for any and all damage to my own speakers/crossovers. I will not go into business modifying other peoples crossovers.

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Dean, Let me say first I'm sorry if I offend you or anyone else before the rest of my post. If you're not going to tell us what you did/are doing what is the point of this thread? Are you just going to replace all the stock caps with Audyn Plus of the same values? I can read and I am not an IDIOT. I accept full responsibility for any and all damage to my own speakers/crossovers. I will not go into business modifying other peoples crossovers.

Babadono, you have to remember that Dean has spent countless hours of trial and error, learning what part upgrades yield the best return, years of refining his process and many, many hours on the bench achieving the knowledge he has. He has established a small side business performing crossover upgrades on various speakers. Dean would be shooting himself in the foot if he shared in detail what upgrades he performs and the process that he uses to do so.

This thread was started by me, not Dean. My intention was to document my journey of upgrading the crossovers in my RF-7ii's. That would include the removal of the crossovers, re-installation once received back from Dean and my thoughts after hearing the upgraded crossovers. The title of this thread is from my perspective, not from Dean's.

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The glue isn't any big deal, I've used far more, and it doesn't always go where you want it to. Since the air cores aren't tied down, I hope they used a lot. Every RC-7 I ever worked on had capacitors hanging by their leads because enough adhesive wasn't applied. PCB work is a little different than point-to-point work on a board. Still, there should at least be an attempt made at keeping it where it belongs.

I know my website isn't great, but I do wish more people would read the information that I put out there. I will probably post a handful of pictures of what I do, but it won't be a step by step, and I won't be listing the values. One of the biggest mistakes I ever made was listing the values and parts for the RF-7 upgrade. For every guy who is qualified to do the work, there are a hundred who aren't. Since I listed the values, or gave them up in email, many felt I was somehow obligated to walk them through the process, or to tell them what to do when they screwed something up. If your first question is: "what are the values", then that tells me that you don't know how to read what's clearly written on the part. Looking at it from my point of view, do you think a question like that makes me think you're qualified to do this kind of work? Here is a short list of the nightmare stuff I've had to put up with over the years.

1) Running a screwdriver into the high pass coils while trying to remove the red/orange oval epoxy coated capacitors.

2) Using too much heat and lifting the foil off of the board.

3) Not using enough heat, and staying on the pad so long that they ruined the part.

4) Not being able figure out where to put the parts. My personal favorite is not situating a part correctly, and then finding that the top board no longer drops down correctly.

5) After telling me they were an EE and could solder the space shuttle together, they emailed several days later and told me they couldn't get the solder to flow.

6) Should I use a 15 watt soldering iron or a soldering gun that has two settings (a zillion watts and a gazillion) watts.

7) I know you said not to mess with the coils, but I bought bigger ones -- where do you think I should put them (I couldn't bring myself to typing the answer).

8) I bought a solder sucker, and it doesn't work.

9) The leads won't reach. With several (RF-5, RB-75, etc), you have to drill holes though the board, scratch through the coating down to the foil, and create a new solder pad).

On and on it goes. Keep in mind that while these emails are coming in, I'm supposed to be in the workroom doing stuff for people who are actually paying me for my time. And yes, I'm the reason Al took down is DIY section. He started running into issues of his own and I told him the only way to avoid them is to pull his designs. He had a secondary motivation that I won't go into.

Buying the right tools alone approaches the cost of most of the work I do.

Can you tell that this is sore spot with me? I was burned so many times by this stuff that I just decided I would no longer support the DIY efforts of others. OTOH, Bob Crites has had great sucess with his kits, but like I said, the point-to-point stuff is a bit different than PCB work.

Here's what I love about all of this: a person will freak out over the thought of having a professional do it, but won't think twice about whipping out the old soldering gun and going at it wearing a blindfold.

End rant. Sorry.

A lot of us are here to gain knowledge and are interested in doing things ourselves. I have read this forum since the first days and have learned a lot from you and others over the years. I thank you. That said there has been a big change over the last few years. Where you used to be helpful to those of us that wanted to learn now you say you can't be bothered, and even worse you assume most of us are idiots now. Why are you even here anymore? Oh ya, you need to sell your stuff now. Sorry if this offends you but your post offended me.

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A lot of us are here to gain knowledge and are interested in doing things ourselves.

Then you need to look elsewhere for help. Dean is running a business, not a mentoring service. That being said, Dean still shares knowledge on these pages. I have no issue with his post. Obviously YMMV.

I'm in the automotive repair business and as such field countless calls from people asking me to tell them how to fix their vehicles. I had one guy go off on me when I told him that if he didn't know what the part was that I was describing, he had no business trying to repair the vehicle. Others simply hang up when you try to schedule them an appointment. I can empathize with him. It gets old after a while.

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A lot of us are here to gain knowledge and are interested in doing things ourselves. I have read this forum since the first days and have learned a lot from you and others over the years. I thank you. That said there has been a big change over the last few years. Where you used to be helpful to those of us that wanted to learn now you say you can't be bothered, and even worse you assume most of us are idiots now. Why are you even here anymore? Oh ya, you need to sell your stuff now. Sorry if this offends you but your post offended me.

what have you provided to the Klipsch community?

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Where you used to be helpful to those of us that wanted to learn now you say you can't be bothered, and even worse you assume most of us are idiots now. Why are you even here anymore? Oh ya, you need to sell your stuff now. Sorry if this offends you but your post offended me.

I believe I said I don't have the time to deal with what comes with the territory. I never called anyone an "idiot", I was just inferring that there are many who think they can do this, but end up finding they can't. I guess you're upset because my primary purpose here isn't to provide personal services to you. I'm pretty much the only vendor left fielding questions here, most everyone else has left or quit posting. One need look no further than a post like yours for the reason why.

A lot of us are here to gain knowledge and are interested in doing things ourselves.

Youthman just showed you how to get the crossovers out. So watch a few youtube videos and get busy -- what do you need me for?

Edited by DeanG

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I can read and I am not an IDIOT. I accept full responsibility for any and all damage to my own speakers/crossovers. I will not go into business modifying other peoples crossovers.

Like I told the other "not idiot" -- get busy!

Right, I refuse to do a step by step instruction process for this because I'm afraid you or someone else might start a crossover business. Hey, I have an idea, why don't you write the instructions and field all the phone calls and emails.

The problem here is that neither one of you paid very close attention to what I wrote. I have a wife, children, a day job, and work piling up on my bench. I barely have time to field my normal email traffic. I have no idea what either of you are offended over. It's my time, and I think I should be allowed to spend it as I want. I don't owe either of you anything. It's me who should be offended.

Edit: I'm not really offended as much as I am upset over the fact that you aren't willing to see this from my perspective.

There is another issue I forgot to mention. I have a verbal non - disclosure agreement with Klipsch. It's not the kind that involved lawyers, but a handshake. Klipsch doesn't release much in the way of engineering data on current production loudspeakers, and I was asked to sit on anything I run across or given. There were things I knew about the RF-7 that I didn't talk about until after they were discontinued.

Edited by DeanG
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