Why the hell are tube amps so expensive?

[SuBXeRo]

What gives?????????????? I know the tubes themselves will vary upon make but the actual design of the amp seems so simple in comparison to a transistor amp. Any thoughts?

[captmobley]

Because they sound so dadgum good with horns!

I have always bought my tube amps used. I don't think they actually cost anymore than a transistor amp and the sound IMHO is so much better. Beware, though, once you start on tubes, particularly SET's, it's very hard to stop. At the moment, I have 7 pairs of tube monoblocks and 2 other integrated amps.

[SuBXeRo]

i was looking at the jolida FX-10 which is a neat little amp! so expensive and a dream at the moment. I love the look of Ayon gear though and there is a guy selling his Orion for 2100!!! i wish i had the cash. Lust, Drool, Abadaabbbaa wantttt

[ClaudeJ1]

What gives?????????????? I know the tubes themselves will vary upon make but the actual design of the amp seems so simple in comparison to a transistor amp. Any thoughts?

Yes, they sound good, but not that good. Non linear behavior with non linear speaker loads. Pleasant distortions by way of even order harmonics is what makes the "warm" sounding. Not a bad thing, but not worth the money. Been there done that with Mac, Marantz, HK Citation, Dynaco, Scott, etc................space heaters that need to have the bias babysat and tube replacment/matching. Not worth it for me, but obviously yes for others. Try chip amps.

[tube fanatic]

What gives?????????????? I know the tubes themselves will vary upon make but the actual design of the amp seems so simple in comparison to a transistor amp. Any thoughts?

This is a question that I field constantly. Tube amps do not have to be expensive. In fact, it's possible to create wonderful sounding tube amps for a very modest expenditure. I do that all the time. That said, there are different grades of output transformers available for tube amps- the best are very costly. But, in the real world, when running comparisons of those with the less expensive offerings, the difference in sound often doesn't justify the huge cost difference. The amount of power required also has an influence on the cost. Power transformers which can deliver a few hundred volts at, say, a quarter amp are expensive. Large value electrolytic caps rated for 500 volts can get costly as well. In some amps, many of such electrolytics are needed. The tubes themselves, depending on the design of the amp and power needed, can get quite expensive. Some manufacturers use "audiophile grade" components in their products. These are often quite expensive (and imo aren't worth the cost at all.) There's also the issue of the kind of enclosure the amp is built in. One with a 3/8" thick front plate "milled from a solid block of aluminum sourced from the purest source on Earth" can comprise half the cost of the amp! Hope this clarifies the question a bit...

Maynard

[dtel]

It's part of the magic

[Shakeydeal]

What gives?????????????? I know the tubes themselves will vary upon make but the actual design of the amp seems so simple in comparison to a transistor amp. Any thoughts?

Yes, they sound good, but not that good. Non linear behavior with non linear speaker loads. Pleasant distortions by way of even order harmonics is what makes the "warm" sounding. Not a bad thing, but not worth the money. Been there done that with Mac, Marantz, HK Citation, Dynaco, Scott, etc................space heaters that need to have the bias babysat and tube replacment/matching. Not worth it for me, but obviously yes for others. Try chip amps.

You should listen to some modern tube designs. Nothing like what you describe.

Shakey

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Tube amps are not made 5,000 at a time on an assembly line. That pushes the cost up.

[mike stehr]

Tube amps do not have to be expensive. In fact, it's possible to create wonderful sounding tube amps for a very modest expenditure.

It's easily possible, if one has enough desire to create. Desire for the hobby and lack of income is what put me into it.

[ClaudeJ1]

What gives?????????????? I know the tubes themselves will vary upon make but the actual design of the amp seems so simple in comparison to a transistor amp. Any thoughts?

This is a question that I field constantly. Tube amps do not have to be expensive. In fact, it's possible to create wonderful sounding tube amps for a very modest expenditure. I do that all the time. That said, there are different grades of output transformers available for tube amps- the best are very costly. But, in the real world, when running comparisons of those with the less expensive offerings, the difference in sound often doesn't justify the huge cost difference. The amount of power required also has an influence on the cost. Power transformers which can deliver a few hundred volts at, say, a quarter amp are expensive. Large value electrolytic caps rated for 500 volts can get costly as well. In some amps, many of such electrolytics are needed. The tubes themselves, depending on the design of the amp and power needed, can get quite expensive. Some manufacturers use "audiophile grade" components in their products. These are often quite expensive (and imo aren't worth the cost at all.) There's also the issue of the kind of enclosure the amp is built in. One with a 3/8" thick front plate "milled from a solid block of aluminum sourced from the purest source on Earth" can comprise half the cost of the amp! Hope this clarifies the question a bit...

Maynard

Which brings to mind the question: Why step up voltages and impedances, unless you are Julius Futterman, only to transform them down for low voltage, low impedance loudspeakers, while creating space heaters in the process. For a pre-amp it makes some sense, but for power amps? Not so much. You good iron and that's where the cost is....the output transformers.

Edited January 9, 2014 by ClaudeJ1

[ClaudeJ1]

What gives?????????????? I know the tubes themselves will vary upon make but the actual design of the amp seems so simple in comparison to a transistor amp. Any thoughts?

Yes, they sound good, but not that good. Non linear behavior with non linear speaker loads. Pleasant distortions by way of even order harmonics is what makes the "warm" sounding. Not a bad thing, but not worth the money. Been there done that with Mac, Marantz, HK Citation, Dynaco, Scott, etc................space heaters that need to have the bias babysat and tube replacment/matching. Not worth it for me, but obviously yes for others. Try chip amps.

You should listen to some modern tube designs. Nothing like what you describe.

Shakey

You should listen to even more modern solid state designs like Class D.

[Schu]

You should listen to some modern tube designs. Nothing like what you describe.

Shakey

You should listen to even more modern solid state designs like Class D.

^BANG!

lol.

I do have one question for the tubers, and you should tell me please if it's a stupid question or not... do tube designs ever use toroidal transformers or is that completely inappropriate?

Edited January 9, 2014 by Schu

[WMcD]

Of course I agree with the above.

Let me say that 1970 (or 1960 to 1970) could be roughly considered a watershed period for when half the electronic devices were solid state -- sort of a transition.

Before then, tubes were used throughout the electronic industry. Post WWII industry was churning out tube gear along with the caps and high voltage power supply transformer and output transformers needed. TV's had dozens of tubes.

One interesting aside is that the first trans-Atlantic telephone cable was made in 1958 and required about 20 amplifiers along the cable itself. Bell Labs designed these with tubes because they were well understood even though it had invented transistors. Again interesting is that the first trans-Atlantic telegraph cable was accomplished 100 years earlier. So America and Europe have been in digital communication (or at least Morse) via wire for 150 years.

But then the transistors became more reliable and cheaper. No output transformers were needed. In my view, it was the Japanese who took the greatest advantage of the potential.

Anyway, it was like the conversion from horse drawn carts to automobiles. Let me add by edit. Back to the dawn of history there was an infrastructure for horse drawn carts. And with the Model T and occasional breakdown came the cry of "get a horse" in the transition period. Now horse drawn cart are expensive, in part because the infrastructure is gone.

WMcD

Edited January 9, 2014 by William F. Gil McDermott

[Schu]

thank the Apollo program, and all your tax dollars, for the integrated circuit!

Edited January 9, 2014 by Schu

[Sancho Panza]

thank the Apollo program, and all your tax dollars, for the integrated circuit!

You wouldn't be posting on the internet without it!

[derrickdj1]

I wanted to try tube gear so I purchased a Yaqin VK 2100. It gave me a taste of tube gear without spending to much money. I have been pleased with the amp on my McIntosh XR 5 speakers and can hear a difference compared to my SS amps. The amp is from China and is of good bulid quality and has been a solid in my system. This amp has tubes in the front and SS in the rear so it is not an all tube amp. It can driver the RF 7's without a problem since it is 80 watts. Some of these amps may be a consideration for people not wanting to spend a great deal of money to see if they want to go in a tube amp direction or not fuss with the hassle of fixing up a vintage tube amp. Here is a pic of one for around $650. Buy them from Canada and save on shipping and get a gurantee. I guess is that you can sell them fairly easy if you don't like it.

Edited January 9, 2014 by derrickdj1

[dtel]

thank the Apollo program, and all your tax dollars, for the integrated circuit!

You wouldn't be posting on the internet without it!

And Al "global warming" Gore

[Sancho Panza]

To avoid getting political I'm not going to post anything about Al Gore; gd Scaliwag...

[Thaddeus Smith]

To avoid getting political I'm not going to post anything about Al Gore; gd Scaliwag...

[Shakeydeal]

What gives?????????????? I know the tubes themselves will vary upon make but the actual design of the amp seems so simple in comparison to a transistor amp. Any thoughts?

Yes, they sound good, but not that good. Non linear behavior with non linear speaker loads. Pleasant distortions by way of even order harmonics is what makes the "warm" sounding. Not a bad thing, but not worth the money. Been there done that with Mac, Marantz, HK Citation, Dynaco, Scott, etc................space heaters that need to have the bias babysat and tube replacment/matching. Not worth it for me, but obviously yes for others. Try chip amps.

You should listen to some modern tube designs. Nothing like what you describe.

Shakey

You should listen to even more modern solid state designs like Class D.

Listen, we can debate this tubes vs SS thing till the cows come home. You like what you like........so on and so forth.

I have heard some very good sounding SS amps in my system. A couple I could almost live with long term. But they do not have the natural tone and humanness of tubes. And I am not speaking about warmth, and midrange lushness. I heard a Marantz 7B years ago, and it would put me to sleep. So that's NOT my idea of what tubes should sound like.

One that came close for me was a Plinius SA-102. Extremely good SS amp that I used for a while on some Piega P10s. But as soon as I inserted a good pair of tube monoblocks back into the system it was game over for the Plinius.

Listen to whatever you like, but just know that there are tube amps that can compete with SS amps at what they do best. Don't paint with such a broad brush. And like I said, there are some good sand amps that can give you a healthy dose of tube goodness, but don't quite make it all the way there.

Shakey

Edited January 9, 2014 by Shakeydeal