Don Richard Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Tube amplifiers and steam engine cars have shared the same fate...both have certain advantages and both have been rendered obsolete by more modern technology. However, there are afficianados of both who will spend large sums of money to own these relics, people who want to own a piece of history, people who don't mind the hassle one has to put up with to use these antiques, people who will ignore the limitations of old equipment and are willing to pay for it simply because they don't care. It's about the history, not the technology. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube fanatic Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) What gives?????????????? I know the tubes themselves will vary upon make but the actual design of the amp seems so simple in comparison to a transistor amp. Any thoughts? Yes, they sound good, but not that good. Non linear behavior with non linear speaker loads. Pleasant distortions by way of even order harmonics is what makes the "warm" sounding. Not a bad thing, but not worth the money. Been there done that with Mac, Marantz, HK Citation, Dynaco, Scott, etc................space heaters that need to have the bias babysat and tube replacment/matching. Not worth it for me, but obviously yes for others. Try chip amps. Not all tube amps are "space heaters." An amp which idles at even 40 or 50 watts plate dissipation isn't going to exert much heating effect in the room any more than a lamp will. Regarding bias, again not all amps require that kind of adjustment. Many are as plug and play as any solid state amp and require very infrequent tube replacement. It's not unusual to get 20,000 hours or more out of an audio output tube that's being run with conservative parameters. Tube matching is not always needed and, as Daniel Schoo so clearly proved in a recent technical paper, tubes which aren't matched in a curve tracer can be so different that it doesn't pay to bother doing it in a tube tester (this was known back in the 50s when curve tracers were used by manufacturers.) As far as stepping up voltages and impedances only to drop them down later, that's the nature of the beast (unless one uses space charge tubes which run around 12 volts on the plate.) And Schu, toroidal power transformers are sometimes used in tube amps. They are costly, but are available to provide not only fairly high voltages, but very high current as well. All of these questions are part of the controversy of whether ss or tube amps are "better." There are no more answers today than there were decades ago. It's simply a matter of taste. We're fortunate to have both options available. Maynard Edited January 9, 2014 by tube fanatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Tube amplifiers and steam engine cars have shared the same fate...both have certain advantages and both have been rendered obsolete by more modern technology. However, there are afficianados of both who will spend large sums of money to own these relics, people who want to own a piece of history, people who don't mind the hassle one has to put up with to use these antiques, people who will ignore the limitations of old equipment and are willing to pay for it simply because they don't care. It's about the history, not the technology. Wow, where to start? Hassle? In 15 years of owning tube amps I have had two issues and neither involved the tubes themselves, but were tranformer related. I set the bias one time, and check it every few months, no adjustment is usually necessary. I replace the output tubes every two to three years, and the small signal tubes much less often than that. If you call that a "hassle", it's worth it to ME for the sound I get. And lumping tube amps in with steam engine cars is ludicrous. Certainly you can do better than that? Hey, I understand if people don't want to "hassle" with tubes. SS is certainly more "plug n play". But don't discount tubes as old technology that sounds sweet and syrupy. It just ain't so. Shakey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) I don't get the defensive attitude Shakey. There is NO REASON FOR IT as this is not an assault on you personally and there is no need for the guilt by association type attitude. We ALL KNOW the benefits of tubes, and I really do not think anyone here is trying to say one is better than the other or in fact trying my marginalize or "discount" one or the other... I think some of us are saying there are alternatives. even PWK has written articles of fondness for SS Edited January 9, 2014 by Schu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Has anyone here run a Tube front end with the reference 7's for 2 channel? I realize there are benefits for heritage, but I am wondering what the effect is in the reference line... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I don't get the defensive attitude Shakey. There is NO REASON FOR IT as this is not an assault on you personally and there is no need for the guilt by association type attitude. We ALL KNOW the benefits of tubes, and I really do not think anyone here is trying to say one is better than the other or in fact trying my marginalize or "discount" one or the other... I think some of us are saying there are alternatives. even PWK has written articles of fondness for SS Your reading comprehension skills need work. Obviously "we all know the benefits of tubes" is not an accurate statement. Not even close. Does this sound like someone who "knows the benefits of tubes"? people who don't mind the hassle one has to put up with to use these antiques, people who will ignore the limitations of old equipment and are willing to pay for it simply because they don't care. It's about the history, not the technology. How about this one? Pleasant distortions by way of even order harmonics is what makes the "warm" sounding. Not a bad thing, but not worth the money. Been there done that with Mac, Marantz, HK Citation, Dynaco, Scott, etc................space heaters that need to have the bias babysat and tube replacment/matching I am neither taking it personally nor being defensive. Just participating in a "spirited" debate. The above posters shared their point of view, yet you felt no compulsion to call them out for it. I shared mine, with no condescending tone or personal insults. Just my opinion. You need to let this one go. Shakey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tromprof Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I owned a 300B tube amp for years and it was absolute magic with my K-horns. Bought a relatively modestly priced Pioneer receiver with class D amps and it smoked the 300B, and at 1/4 the price. It is hard to argue the price benefit ratio of modern SS vs tubes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) I don't get the defensive attitude Shakey. There is NO REASON FOR IT as this is not an assault on you personally and there is no need for the guilt by association type attitude. We ALL KNOW the benefits of tubes, and I really do not think anyone here is trying to say one is better than the other or in fact trying my marginalize or "discount" one or the other... I think some of us are saying there are alternatives. even PWK has written articles of fondness for SS Your reading comprehension skills need work. Obviously "we all know the benefits of tubes" is not an accurate statement. Not even close. Does this sound like someone who "knows the benefits of tubes"? people who don't mind the hassle one has to put up with to use these antiques, people who will ignore the limitations of old equipment and are willing to pay for it simply because they don't care. It's about the history, not the technology. How about this one? Pleasant distortions by way of even order harmonics is what makes the "warm" sounding. Not a bad thing, but not worth the money. Been there done that with Mac, Marantz, HK Citation, Dynaco, Scott, etc................space heaters that need to have the bias babysat and tube replacment/matching I am neither taking it personally nor being defensive. Just participating in a "spirited" debate. The above posters shared their point of view, yet you felt no compulsion to call them out for it. I shared mine, with no condescending tone or personal insults. Just my opinion. You need to let this one go. Shakey :facepalm: I'm not buying it... still more insolence is to come, of that I am sure. Edited January 9, 2014 by Schu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Insolence? Are you serious? I have been more than civil in this thread. You don't like me, that's plain to see. But call it like it is, don't try to spin it into something it's not. Shakey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 What gives?????????????? I know the tubes themselves will vary upon make but the actual design of the amp seems so simple in comparison to a transistor amp. Any thoughts? Yes, they sound good, but not that good. Non linear behavior with non linear speaker loads. Pleasant distortions by way of even order harmonics is what makes the "warm" sounding. Not a bad thing, but not worth the money. Been there done that with Mac, Marantz, HK Citation, Dynaco, Scott, etc................space heaters that need to have the bias babysat and tube replacment/matching. Not worth it for me, but obviously yes for others. Try chip amps. You should listen to some modern tube designs. Nothing like what you describe. Shakey You should listen to even more modern solid state designs like Class D. Listen to whatever you like, but just know that there are tube amps that can compete with SS amps at what they do best. Don't paint with such a broad brush. And like I said, there are some good sand amps that can give you a healthy dose of tube goodness, but don't quite make it all the way there. Shakey I painted with a fine, pointed brush. I'd like to see a tube amp do as good of a job at driving my DTS-10's or a "wall full of 18's" using tubes. Considering how many modern speaker setups use subs nowadays (greater than 50 percent, I suspect, so millions). But when you are looking go a GOOD 8-35 watts to drive an all horn system, tubes are wonderful, better yet when used just for mids and tweets with a solid state, high damping factor, amp on the woofer section, especially a DIRECT RADIATOR woofer section. If you truly want the best, you will have a bi-amped (passive or active) hybrid system. Best of both worlds, not just "tubes." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) I have been more than civil in this thread I would have to agree here with this statement. Bill Edited January 9, 2014 by willland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivernuggets Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) I have a couple Panasonic SA-XR class D receivers that sound very good. I owned a 300B tube amp for years and it was absolute magic with my K-horns. Bought a relatively modestly priced Pioneer receiver with class D amps and it smoked the 300B, and at 1/4 the price. It is hard to argue the price benefit ratio of modern SS vs tubes. I quickly looked up 'Pioneer class D receiver' and found their SC-05 and 07. Then went to Amazon for a quick price check on the 05. Um.....the picture of the 'Pioneer' doesn't seem right. So, what were we talking about? Something vs something else......I forget. http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SC-05-Elite-7-1-Channel-Receiver/dp/B001GBYVB6 Edited January 9, 2014 by Rivernuggets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Now that's Class D amplication I can get behind......... Shakey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Tube amplifiers and steam engine cars have shared the same fate...both have certain advantages and both have been rendered obsolete by more modern technology. However, there are afficianados of both who will spend large sums of money to own these relics, people who want to own a piece of history, people who don't mind the hassle one has to put up with to use these antiques, people who will ignore the limitations of old equipment and are willing to pay for it simply because they don't care. It's about the history, not the technology. Wow, where to start? Hassle? In 15 years of owning tube amps I have had two issues and neither involved the tubes themselves, but were tranformer related. Tube amps require the use of output transformers in nearly all cases. And if they fail, the amp does not operate properly. I set the bias one time, and check it every few months, no adjustment is usually necessary. I replace the output tubes every two to three years, and the small signal tubes much less often than that. If you call that a "hassle", it's worth it to ME for the sound I get. I clearly stated some people do not mind the hassle (and expense) of periodic maintenance. And lumping tube amps in with steam engine cars is ludicrous. Certainly you can do better than that? Why is it ludicrous? It's a good analogy and there are many more such analogies that I could give. It's just not worth the time. Hey, I understand if people don't want to "hassle" with tubes. SS is certainly more "plug n play". But don't discount tubes as old technology that sounds sweet and syrupy. It just ain't so. Solid state amps can be designed to sound just like a tube amp, and many do. Some of us like accurate sound, not euphonic sound. I want to hear what the recording engineer hears, and solid state equipment can deliver that, as can some tube designs. Shakey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 this battle must continue. peace between tubes and ss would result in the Second Coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivernuggets Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 'Roll Over Image To Zoom In' written under the pic. Now that's funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Why is it ludicrous? It's a good analogy and there are many more such analogies that I could give. It's just not worth the time. How many tube amps do you think there are in existence vs steam cars right now? Yeah, you really should take the time to come up with a better analogy, that wouldn't didn't take . Solid state amps can be designed to sound just like a tube amp, and many do. Some of us like accurate sound, not euphonic sound. I want to hear what the recording engineer hears, and solid state equipment can deliver that, as can some tube designs. I don't like euphoic sound either. And I don't have euphonic sound. And if a SS amp sounds just like a tube amp, by your reasoning, it must sound like crap too. Shakey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TasDom Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I have a couple Panasonic SA-XR class D receivers that sound very good. I owned a 300B tube amp for years and it was absolute magic with my K-horns. Bought a relatively modestly priced Pioneer receiver with class D amps and it smoked the 300B, and at 1/4 the price. It is hard to argue the price benefit ratio of modern SS vs tubes. I quickly looked up 'Pioneer class D receiver' and found their SC-05 and 07. Then went to Amazon for a quick price check on the 05. Um.....the picture of the 'Pioneer' doesn't seem right. So, what were we talking about? Something vs something else......I forget. http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SC-05-Elite-7-1-Channel-Receiver/dp/B001GBYVB6 Added to cart and wish list! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Don said something interesting: Some of us like accurate sound, not euphonic sound. I want to hear what the recording engineer hears, and solid state equipment can deliver that, as can some tube designs. The acoustics of typical domestic listening rooms demands application of equalization to achieve a natural tonal balance (see Toole's and Olive's research for example). "Accurate" doesn't sound natural at all to a large number of folks, me included, but applying eq of any sort is by definition distortion and inaccurate. If you draw the line at basically inaudible, possibly euphonic, low order, monotonically decaying distortion pattern of a tube amp, do you forego the relatively gross distortion of equalization on principle as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I have a couple Panasonic SA-XR class D receivers that sound very good. I owned a 300B tube amp for years and it was absolute magic with my K-horns. Bought a relatively modestly priced Pioneer receiver with class D amps and it smoked the 300B, and at 1/4 the price. It is hard to argue the price benefit ratio of modern SS vs tubes. I quickly looked up 'Pioneer class D receiver' and found their SC-05 and 07. Then went to Amazon for a quick price check on the 05. Um.....the picture of the 'Pioneer' doesn't seem right. So, what were we talking about? Something vs something else......I forget. http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SC-05-Elite-7-1-Channel-Receiver/dp/B001GBYVB6 Added to cart and wish list! 7 used from $500. They vary from Used - like new to Used "acceptable." I wonder what acceptable means? The only issue that I see is that the Pioneer looks like it is high maintenance, worse than tubes. This thread brings back memories of this forum 10 years ago. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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