jason str Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I'm using the B&C 21SW152-4, which is $750....but I purchased mine used for something like $500, I forget. My interest in this cabinet was kindled by the insanely awesome measurements that Ricci published: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=81&mset=87 To be honest, I'm not interested in digging lower at the expense of "high frequency" performance...."high frequency" in this case being the 80Hz region, but this cab is solid all the way up to just under 300Hz. Covering an entire decade with a tapped horn is unheard of....I built the cabinet just to hear how the measurements correlated to the audible experience. Normally I don't like tapped horns. Another thing to note is that its distortion characteristic is nothing like a typical horn of any flavor; musical content below the Fc comes across in a very pleasing way even though it's not technically "accurate". For instance, the dubstep I played at a dance party in my basement a few weekends ago was just rocking everyone's senses - even with the 10Hz'ish content. It was literally like swimming underwater....and I only had a puny "1000 watt" bridged XTi 1000 powering it (which was probably closer to 800W in reality). When I build a second cabinet (to improve room mode behavior), I'm going to run new electrical and get a 4000W amplifier for each cabinet. Ironically, I typically listen at only ~65dB or so (which I'm doing while writing this). The thing I like about this sub is I can play something like Skrillex and just slam the crap out of people, but then without changing anything I can put in something like Blackmore's Night or Loreena McKennitt and everything sounds super natural - none of that over-exagerated bass with normal music. Everything is effortless. You don't get this sound from designs like the DTS-10, Lab12, THT, Lil Wrecker, or whatever the budget flavor of the week is....and that's not at all to downplay those designs (in case there's anyone out there enjoying them). The money put into the 21SW152-4 is entirely solid engineering. At the same time the Othorn horn design requires a driver of this caliber, and the benefits reaped far outweigh the steep cost of entry in my mind. Stacking multiple cheaper subs together doesn't get you to the same level of quality - even if you can get it go louder. It's the full gambit of quiet music to loud music that really differentiates this sub in my opinion. Anyways, that's just one guys opinion that is on this never-ending quest for the best possible sound. If it's out of your budget, then of course we need to start talking other designs.....and I can see those being extremely enjoyable - maybe even more enjoyable when you think about how much more music you could purchase with the money saved. So you have A/B'd all these different subwoofers and came to the conclusion that the Orothon is best in your opinion ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 The Othorn has the characteristics of a pro sub. It does what it does very well. I know this because I know you know what you are talking about. You could teach this stuff! I would be better off with a pair of Orthons in place of my THT's due to the extreme size of my space. In my big room, the seriously low LFE is sucked up. THT's, lilwreckers and DTS-10's are built for HT's. KPT-684's, T-60's, Orthon's and TH118's are built for larger venues, and do very well at music in any size venue. Before I mentioned the similarities of the TH118 and the Othorn. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 What do you think? I think you should build a pair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I just looked over the Orthon build, it looks pretty well designed compared to some others. Braces are well placed on the cabinet but the motorboard may be the weak point. Still i don't get how blocking much of the horn path with a massive driver does the design any good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 130 dB @ 37Hz. It doesn't seem to be getting in the way of output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I was thinking more in the line of turbulence in the horn path from the driver assy. not actual output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I was thinking more in the line of turbulence in the horn path from the driver assy. not actual output. Valid question. I don't know if that would show up in the frequency response chart or not. If that's the case, all tapped horns would suffer from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I was thinking more in the line of turbulence in the horn path from the driver assy. not actual output. Valid question. I don't know if that would show up in the frequency response chart or not. If that's the case, all tapped horns would suffer from it. Ricci has provided enough measurements to quantify the effects of any turbulent airflow, or the position of the driver in the horn path. It shows up in the distortion and frequency response plots. The motorboard is the best braced portion in the cabinet: there's no way the driver's steel frame is going to flex and you've got 8 screws bolting it to the motorboard. I notice the most vibration on the panel opposite of the driver, but I just put that side towards the ground so the weight of the cabinet helps stiffen it up. I also haven't installed all of the braces because I didn't do the access panel and just slide the driver in from the mouth. Btw, that 130dB is a 2m ground plane....most systems are compared at 1m, which is a 3dB difference. Indoors you're getting another 6dB or so on top of that from corner loading, so 140dB indoors wouldn't be too unreasonable - especially for a transient if it happened at the right frequencies. I think I'm hitting around 125dB in my basement with my amplifier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 I was thinking more in the line of turbulence in the horn path from the driver assy. not actual output. Valid question. I don't know if that would show up in the frequency response chart or not. If that's the case, all tapped horns would suffer from it. Ricci has provided enough measurements to quantify the effects of any turbulent airflow, or the position of the driver in the horn path. It shows up in the distortion and frequency response plots. The motorboard is the best braced portion in the cabinet: there's no way the driver's steel frame is going to flex and you've got 8 screws bolting it to the motorboard. I notice the most vibration on the panel opposite of the driver, but I just put that side towards the ground so the weight of the cabinet helps stiffen it up. I also haven't installed all of the braces because I didn't do the access panel and just slide the driver in from the mouth. Btw, that 130dB is a 2m ground plane....most systems are compared at 1m, which is a 3dB difference. Indoors you're getting another 6dB or so on top of that from corner loading, so 140dB indoors wouldn't be too unreasonable - especially for a transient if it happened at the right frequencies. I think I'm hitting around 125dB in my basement with my amplifier. That's 10db beyond the pain threshold. Seems unreasonable to me unless you are masochistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 It's like owning a Bugatti Veyron and no place to drive 220 mph. plus without killing yourself and some innocent victims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Probably have not pushed my stuff much over 100dB in a long time. Once the windows start flexing i start to wonder what its doing to my eardrums, im sure i don't need anymore hearing loss than i have already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Hearing pain / damage is very much dependent on duration and tonal content. For example, when you close the door on a nice car with a good seal, you're experiencing SPL's way above 120dB at very low frequencies. That low frequency rumble with one window open on the interstate? Probably a good 120dB+ as well. If you find the resonance of your windows / walls / whatever, then it doesn't take much SPL to induce sympathetic vibration. I bring it up because I'm very sensitive about hearing loss - especially as the sound guy at concerts who ultimately gets to choose how much people's ears ring after a show. My personal goal is no ear ringing at all, and ironically, I get credited with having some of the loudest / cleanest mixes. The secret is not letting people's hearing go into a threshold shift: that ringing and dullness of sound is a combination of your body's defense mechanism and damage to all the cilia in your ear (and I'm sure other stuff too)....but if you keep that from happening, then it doesn't need to be as loud to sound loud because everyone's hearing is in tact. The only way to pull that off though is to keep pulling down the volume whenever you have the chance....and then choose those passages in the music to let the volume get carried away, and then pull it back again - it's all about that dynamic contrast. The research I've read shows that the most likely damage from excessive volume at low frequencies is actually respiratory problems....not ear damage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted January 28, 2014 Moderators Share Posted January 28, 2014 I know this because I know you know what you are talking about. You could teach this stuff! Well the good DrWho does play with electrons pertaining to sound and music for a living and was actually taught this in school when he wasn't building speakers and subs and chasing females and driving like a madman, ask his dad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeskizzle Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 I guess if I wanted to cover the HT spectrum (my focus) and the music spectrum, I should just pull a "lukeamdman" on the AVS forum. Twin Gjallarhorns and Othorns in the same room. Course, I'd need to get some solid $$$ to do that. He has since moved one Ghorn and one Othorn to the rear of the room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBPK402 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I will soon have a pair of Danley DTS-10 subs to make my 11.2 setup. Klipsch La Scalas for the front 3, KP3002 for the width channels, HIPs for the heights, and side surrounds, and SR70s for the rear surrounds. I have no intention of trying to get max SPL... I just want to be able to listen to movies at or below reference level and have the bass be all over the room with a house curve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 I guess if I wanted to cover the HT spectrum (my focus) and the music spectrum, I should just pull a "lukeamdman" on the AVS forum. Twin Gjallarhorns and Othorns in the same room. Course, I'd need to get some solid $$$ to do that. He has since moved one Ghorn and one Othorn to the rear of the room. 900x900px-LL-6166e71f_20130826_172928_zps7a75d8b9.jpeg That picture is awesome. It reminds me of this scene from the Cannonball run: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 And.........just when I was about to buy a couple more 18s, I read this thread and feel like I am doing a disservice to my LS by having a direct radiating sub. Maybe I should go for a Lilwrecker or even a Gjallerhorn. Either one would kick some serious bootie, but I recommend 2 or 4 Spuds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I guess if I wanted to cover the HT spectrum (my focus) and the music spectrum, I should just pull a "lukeamdman" on the AVS forum. Twin Gjallarhorns and Othorns in the same room. Course, I'd need to get some solid $$$ to do that. He has since moved one Ghorn and one Othorn to the rear of the room. 900x900px-LL-6166e71f_20130826_172928_zps7a75d8b9.jpeg No surprise to a guy with two DTS-10's. One front and one rear is pretty much optimum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sancho Panza Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 What type bass does a drum produce? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 What type bass does a drum produce? Depends on the size of the drum, just like the length of a horn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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