How to "listen"?

[seti]

Tripath is like SET with no feedback, the frequency response tracks the impedance curve at the higher frequencies. If you're high frequency output is elevated, then you're also hearing more of the low level garbage in your recordings.

A friend has khorns and a nice selection of tube amps. On hand was a McIntosh MC225 and a pair George Wright 2A3 SET amps. The SET amps were also used and measured on my jubs. The frequency response on the 225 and SET amps did not change much at all. Same goes for the Jubs. For what its worth that is what we experienced and measured.

Low level garbage?

[Deang]

Compression artifacts.

It's also network dependant.

[seti]

Compression artifacts.

It's also network dependant.

Comprende...

Which networks would be more susceptible? This was with A crossovers.

[Boxx]

I had some AR-3s - they were my first real set of loudspeakers.

I have a pair of AR-3a's in my home office (restored). I don't I could ever part with them....

[Mallette]

I disagree about LP's what I hear is not only the master tape, ...

...blah, blah, blah. Crikey, Claude, trolling with that old saw? How many times have we been done that road?

Neither I, nor anyone can know what you hear. Only what I hear. I just had yet another individual up in my listening room who described how he used to listen to music, but had listened less and less over the years and didn't know why. He was giddy at what he was listening to, a record. The record was 85 years old.

He obviously hears differently that you...or me.

Medium isn't relevant, nor is format. Only the music, the performance, and the engineering. If you are content to do without 80 percent or so of the recorded output of all humankind, excellent.

I listen to music, not media and certainly not format.

Dave

[ClaudeJ1]

I disagree about LP's what I hear is not only the master tape, ...

...blah, blah, blah. Crikey, Claude, trolling with that old saw? How many times have we been done that road?

Neither I, nor anyone can know what you hear. Only what I hear. I just had yet another individual up in my listening room who described how he used to listen to music, but had listened less and less over the years and didn't know why. He was giddy at what he was listening to, a record. The record was 85 years old.

He obviously hears differently that you...or me.

Medium isn't relevant, nor is format. Only the music, the performance, and the engineering. If you are content to do without 80 percent or so of the recorded output of all humankind, excellent.

I listen to music, not media and certainly not format.

Dave

LOL. I'm surprised at your response about LP's. You mean to tell me you NEVER hear ticks and pops? Everything else about LP's I didn't mention was the crappy quality of the vinyl in the late 70's and 80's, how soon we forget. As to "we" having been down that road, it's my first time doing it, so don't take that one out on me, mate.

I still have 1,000 LP's, BTW, and just bought a new turntable and cartridge. Too much trouble to convert them to FLAC files. So I'm not anti anything. I agree with 95% of everything you post, you mean to tell me that ticks and pops don't ever bother you?

Edited January 21, 2014 by ClaudeJ1

[Deang]

Seti,

Any of Al's networks will present a benign load to the amplifier -- the impedance will be ruler flat. I expect Michael will notice a pretty big change when he swaps the networks out.

The Type As, like all of the Klipsch crossovers, are fairly reactive. Impedance begins at around 5 and then goes right off the graph paper. This is of no consequence with the great majority of amplifiers.

[garyrc]

it's that white noise sound you here in the silent moments) on much of my music in varying degrees.

As I am found of saying, "How can I know what YOU hear?" What is the source? If it is LP, you are likely hearing tape hiss from the master. Assuming you are hearing what you say, musicality and pleasing balance, then your are hearing what you paid for...everything that is present, perfectly balanced.

One of the issues with horns is that they are merciless. If it's present, you are going hear it unless something is malfunctioning.

Dave

I disagree about LP's what I hear is not only the master tape, but the noise of a super hard rock being dragged thought a soft ditch at various velocities and frequencies at 20,000 lbs per square inch of pressure, converting every bit of dirt and dust into a tick and pop, totally spoiling the illusion. This is why I converted to CD's in 1983, even then the only player on the market was a SONY. Knowing how far superior digital could be, I coudn't wait!

Some of my old Lps have no clicks and no pops, and seem quite real sounding. Some of my SACDs, DVD-As, and Blu-rays are just as good, as are a few of my CDs. I went over to digital because I was tired of Discwashers, Dust Bugs, radioactive devices, etc. Nothing beats original or real-time first generation reel-to-reel 15 i.p.s., 1/2 track tape. I actually liked it better without Dolby, and I tolerated the ample hiss quite well. I had to resort to DBX for a few tapes with very soft passages. I am ready and waiting for a better medium than any of the above.

[Mallette]

You mean to tell me you NEVER hear ticks and pops?

Sorry, Claude. Overreaction. If I hear ticks and pops, I dispose of the record because it's apparent the music isn't good enough to make me forget them. I think I was influenced by just having had that experience with my friend/business associate. He is British and owner of Digital Workshop who makes the compiler we use at work and here teaching my staff the fine points.

In discussing likes and such to get the measure of the man and determine how to entertain him in the evenings this week, I'd asked about music. He mentioned he like all kinds, so I took him to the music room yesterday after work and before going out to dinner. In commenting on my turntables, R2R, etc sources, he said he'd converted to CDs years ago and had set up a listening room. Apparently, he had really been into it as he'd talked his wife out of their little used dining room to set up a system with just a single chair so he could "decompress." He said he'd used it less and less and didn't know why. I went through the whole story of my own experience down the same road and wound up by playing the first digital recording I made trying to figure out if something was really wrong with digital. It's my piano recording many have heard here. He was visibly moved. I explained to him how by that process I'd come to the conclusion that nothing was wrong with digital, and that it was about the engineering. He recalled when I reminded him that 95% of the LPs "back in the day" were either unremarkable or sucked, and that CDs were no better but we'd expected more and that the bad engineering stuck out, if anything, even more on them. The whole thing was going so well I drug out my 1920-something Kid Ory recording of Muskrat Ramble. It's a truly remarkable recording with "in your face" presence. He lit up like a Christmas tree and I saw a revelation take place.

We end with my 1965 Louis Armstrong and "St. James Infirmary" in which, if there are any, I never hear any ticks, pops, or anything except Louis so palpably to my right center its surreal.

I suspect he'll be back into listening.

So, you can forgive me, I hope, my knee jerk reaction. Timing, donchaknow.

Dave

[seti]

I disagree about LP's what I hear is not only the master tape, ...

...blah, blah, blah. Crikey, Claude, trolling with that old saw? How many times have we been done that road?

Neither I, nor anyone can know what you hear. Only what I hear. I just had yet another individual up in my listening room who described how he used to listen to music, but had listened less and less over the years and didn't know why. He was giddy at what he was listening to, a record. The record was 85 years old.

He obviously hears differently that you...or me.

Medium isn't relevant, nor is format. Only the music, the performance, and the engineering. If you are content to do without 80 percent or so of the recorded output of all humankind, excellent.

I listen to music, not media and certainly not format.

Dave

LOL. I'm surprised at your response about LP's. You mean to tell me you NEVER hear ticks and pops? Everything else about LP's I didn't mention was the crappy quality of the vinyl in the late 70's and 80's, how soon we forget. As to "we" having been down that road, it's my first time doing it, so don't take that one out on me, mate.

I still have 1,000 LP's, BTW, and just bought a new turntable and cartridge. Too much trouble to convert them to FLAC files. So I'm not anti anything. I agree with 95% of everything you post, you mean to tell me that ticks and pops don't ever bother you?

I have CDs in my collection that on certain tracks and sometimes the entire disc has issues. The issues with a CD that has a scratch or gunk on the CD are much more detrimental to a listening experience than an LP. There are ticks and pops just as there are issues with CDs. I do have my record collection sorted by pristine clean and no or low noise. I also went through a couple turntable tonearm and cartridge combinations before I was this happy with LP playbaclk.

I think this is where high quality music files and music servers have the opportunity to be superior. You can't scratch or dent a music file. Sadly it is amazing how often they choke the quality of a digital release. I've had the same title on CD and digital file and the CD is a much higher bit rate. Or the LP has a free digital download and the bit rate is lower than it should be. This makes me crazy. This format should be the best but it isn't.... yet.

I would never bother to take LP to digital. I have a friend who brings a digital recorder and puts it on the second outputs of my phono pre but I don't bother.

At one time I was buying 78's by the box. This music is sometimes lost. It never made it from 78 to LP or CD. Each new format we lose so much music. The 78s were often very rough but the music so good and rare I learned to listen past the pops and noise. This was a very important skill to learn. Now there are some songs I learned on 78 that when I hear a clean 78 or another format version my brain fills in the pop lol... That is messed up. I also have a rare Hank Sr ep which I would love a pristine version of it but now I feel the noise is part of the atmosphere of the old recording. I have accepted it as is. 78s are soooo old lol....

[iRONic]

Dang! S'gettin' kinda hard to separate the wheat from the chaff up in here.

Several posts have turned the PRETENTIOUS up to 11...

[Mallette]

The 78s were often very rough but the music so good and rare I learned to listen past the pops and noise.

Ian, some are remarkable not because they sound good in spite of being 78s, but because they sound GREAT, period.

Why should it be any more of a shock that 78 rpm, in good condition, played back correctly, would sound better than 33.33 when few argue that 15ips sounds better than 3.75ips?

There is a clarity, a presence, a transparency to a well engineered 78 that can exceed the LP. I have heard it, and others have as well. I think the most remarkable examples are very old, 80 years or more, when you consider over half the county was still lit with . However, some I have from 1955 or so on heavy vinyl that are about as silent as a clean LP and so "live" sounding it is startling to most listeners. Sparkling treble, solid bass.

Dave

[Thaddeus Smith]

I sampled some of the same tracks through headphones (using the same built in dac/headphone jack as in the 2-channel system). The noise is still present, though maybe not as noticeable because I risk killing my ears from the actual music if I turn it up louder. So it's likely an issue of gain matching and the high sensitivity speakers pair with the T-amp. at least I know where to focus my "tinkering".

[ClaudeJ1]

Dave, I agree with you that the ENGINEERING is the problem, not the medium. With the advent of the CD, I can say that one of the WORST recording I own is on CD, and the BEST recordings I own are on CD. Now a very few people are putting 24-bit 192Khz. sampling rates on Blue Ray (hey plastic is plastic) which, Oppos currently have the best, built-in Sabre DACs. Although, according to Tom Holman (of Advent, THX/Lucasfilim, and Audyssey fame) only bats should care about that high of a bit rate, but I digress.

As tech. editor of several photo mags in the last 20 years, I was also a very early adopter of digital photography and helped (just a little) in the development of the Foveon camera sensor technologies. I have been saying that ever since the Fuji S2, and Canon 10D, all digital cameras are better than 99% of photographers.

I'm saying the same thing about the digital recording medium. It's only as good as the producer. One of my reference recordings is "The Nightfly" by Donald Fagen of Steely Dan. It was released in 1983 during the Digital Infancy and has withstood the rest of time. Since, in the right hands, that good of a recording could be produced with the primitive equipment available back then, as compared to today, there is not excuse to ever blame bad sound on the medium anymore.

The days of crappy recycled vinyl with Himalayan warps, unplayable on any turntable, along with noise from bad pressings done too quickly by greedy manufacturers are gone. Either the bits are readable or they are not, period.

So I need to be forgiven for not being the first in line to wax nostalgic about the "good ole' days" of vinyl. There were way more quality variables back then that could produce excellence or crap. IOW, a wider gamut. Like Bill Joel said: "The good old days weren't always good and nothing is as bad as it seems."

[Thaddeus Smith]

It's refreshing to see everyone staying on topic.

[CECAA850]

It's refreshing to see everyone staying on topic.

How DARE you try to steer your own thread back on topic. Moderator!!

[Thaddeus Smith]

who me?

[ClaudeJ1]

It's refreshing to see everyone staying on topic.

LOL, Well you do have to listen for everything I talked about. Would like a list of "test tunes," sir? Trying to make up for slight digressions here, but, hey, they made me do it!

[Thaddeus Smith]

It's refreshing to see everyone staying on topic.

LOL, Well you do have to listen for everything I talked about. Would like a list of "test tunes," sir? Trying to make up for slight digressions here, but, hey, they made me do it!

That would be great! If you find yourself with copious free time, tell me why they're your test tunes and some things I should be listening for.

[Mallette]

So I need to be forgiven for not being the first in line to wax nostalgic about the "good ole' days" of vinyl.

That's where we differ, Claude. For a music lover, there were no "good old days" or "good new days." Every day with good music from any source is a good day. A super clean, dead silent. flat from dc to light recording of crap is a recording of crap...but a great performance recorded 85 years ago is a SMOKE!

Dave