SonicSeeker Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Interesting video I thought I would share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I think they seem to have some good mechanical-type points such as expansible jacks, and durably popular brands like Blue Jeans. but other speculative "myths" seem like myths in their own right to me. It's cheap and easy to ridicule the audibility of any skin effect. Every cable sounds different, but not necessarily better. I think that almost everything breaks in, including cables and power cords, so I consider their put-down of breaking in to be their own myth. It's very popular to say that, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 You should not argue with Hugo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) fourteen minutes... I'm not going to waste fourteen seconds. I'm happy with being oblivious and using moderately priced goods. Edited January 23, 2014 by Schu 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonicSeeker Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 You should not argue with Hugo. no kidding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I thought Lou Ferrigno was deaf. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 There's not doubt that many cables stink, and make systems sound worse. But I also have no doubt that some are gems and make things sound better. Making that determination on paper? Not possible today. Not true. Bateman proved it with measurements, and published the results in a series of articles for Wireworld and Audio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Mark, with all due respect I have to call . The science is pretty clear about wires: no magic involved, or hidden measurements the engineers are ignoring, just basic stuff. And psychology has a lot to say about cognitive dissonance when pre-conceived notions are confronted with conflicting empirical evidence, so I think the audiophools indeed do want to believe. Your post helps enable such beliefs, leading the gullible on a potentially expensive snipe hunt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackGTS Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 And psychology has a lot to say about cognitive dissonance when pre-conceived notions are confronted with conflicting empirical evidence, so I think the audiophools indeed do want to believe. Cognitive dissonance occurs when one believes A but repeatedly practices NOT A. It is a clash between beliefs and actions that involve opposing beliefs. Can we agree on that? As an audiophile I possess this belief: Not all sonic attributes properly correlate to explicit measurement. The way I act on the belief is to use my listening evaluations to select equipments based on the fully subjective analysis. Ergo, I am acting in accordance with my belief, not against it. So, I don't think most audiophiles suffer cognitive dissonance in this business of selecting wires. Boo ping chau, moocha kowa gee. Ling dau goonka gui. Ron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) I was never much of a believer in cables and burn in tube swap etc... I would set with friends and they would tell me of the improvements or degrade that burn in, or a cable, tube swap would contribute to the sound, I really tried to hear these differences but frankly never could and so dismissed the claims as snake oil I have since moved to headphones and i can now say without hesitation that burn in and cables, tubes absolutely make a difference, I have to assume that my hearing loss is at a level which would not allow me to hear these differences, I have no science to say why headphones allow me to hear these differences other than I am totally Immersed in the sound with little to no outside interference Even in the dead of night setting listening to open air speakers there was always some residual noise that would drawl my attention (furnace, refridgerator, AC or passing car) Maybe with open air there is so much more to distract my attention i simply could not concentrate on the minor differences I will state that even with headphones there has never been a night and day difference, always nuances that show up from the swap "I thought Lou Ferrigno was deaf." Awesome Edited January 23, 2014 by joessportster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I did want to believe the Sound King speaker wire wasn't muddying my mids and treble. I couldn't believe it. Good quality 12 Ga. Swapped back in my Carol Command. To me a fair amount of difference. Enough that I have sought out most of that type of wire I could find and bought it from Summit Source. Stuff like this: http://www.summitsource.com/carol-studio-grade-speaker-cable-silver-plate-pure-copper-digital-wall-high-performance-wire-audio-signal-hook-extension-listed-part-c15615592-p-8058.html Very pleased with it other than you can't get anything as good near five times that price anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Mark, with all due respect I have to call . The science is pretty clear about wires: no magic involved, or hidden measurements the engineers are ignoring, just basic stuff. And psychology has a lot to say about cognitive dissonance when pre-conceived notions are confronted with conflicting empirical evidence, so I think the audiophools indeed do want to believe. Your post helps enable such beliefs, leading the gullible on a potentially expensive snipe hunt. I would suggest a simple experiment you can do at home. Connect your speakers with 20 feet of 26ga wire and give a good listen. Then connect them with 20 feet of 12 ga and repeat the listening test. It has nothing to do with "magic." I said earlier this is not about the ads produced by wire and cable companies, it is about the listening. No magic is involved - ever. When you begin by denigrating a class of people as "audiophools" you tip your hand and reveal a bias that is probably too strong to over come. But who knows? Try the test if you like, and see if you hear anything. Why would I intentionally use a cable that will roll off the highs? Sorry Mark, but comparing a long run of narrow gauge wire just supports the science, not the woo. I tend to err on the conservative side: all my rigs use 14 or 12 gauge, all came off a spool as tall as I am at the local electronics surplus/wholesale store for pennies/foot. They even had techflex and all the goodies to spiff them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I think you're trying to complexify making a PB&J sandwich. The gross differences you speak of are a result of picking the wrong tool for the job, and the fine nuances you speak of have a remarkable record of not showing up in controlled tests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 at least they talked about Blue Jeans... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) mdeneen, You can find records of such tests at hydrogenaudio and other such sites, as I'm pretty sure you're already aware, but I took the bait and answered anyway. Really, dude, I'm not sure what to tell you except something like "these are not the droids you're looking for" and leave it at that. The whole wire issue is a dead horse that we don't need to keep poking, so I'm out. Edited January 24, 2014 by Ski Bum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Sniff. Sniff. Sniff? What's that I'm smelling on the wind? A cable thread? This early in the new year? Ah I love the smell of snake oil in the air. Mark ,as always, your comments are cogent, well-reasoned, nuanced, but in this particular case, more than disingenuous. As you know, I have nothing but the highest regard for your skills in the realm of engineering. So don't be offended when I say you are being two faced with your discussion. Two faced you say? Sadly yup. You climb the high ground of authority by stating that you are an engineer, over 40 years in the field, but allow yourself to disregard your scientific discipline by going the hippie route with the ye old" hey man, if you can hear it, you can hear it". Thereby ducking the real problem any intelligent person would have with cables. 1. Cables/speaker are, and should be, a passive component. Just like the hundreds of feet of wire in the speaker drivers, inside the amps/ receiver/preamp. turntable, cd layer whatever, transformers etc. 2. Cables/speaker wire are nothing more than a means to connect components. Nothing more, nothing less. 3. Cables/speaker wire are transmitters of an electronic signal from one component to another. Nothing more, nothing less. 4. There is no known methodology nor empirical method of testing any claim that any cable manufacturer can make about cable aside from the basic specifications from the published standards for standard cable/ electric wire. 5. Transistors, tubes, capacitors, resistors are to my mind, switches, storage or limiter devices of one sort or another. A cable is not a switch, it's not a storage device, it's not current limiter, it's a passive component . There is a well developed science, indeed a well developed engineering understanding of how to use these other particular tools to modify a circuit. There is no methodology, on how to use wire or cable to modify a circuit. 6. What are the most important aspect of building a system. 1. Source Material, 2. Source,. 3. Signal transmission (amps, preamps etc.) 4. Speakers 5. Room. Arrange in any order you want but that's the things anyone interested in sound should tackle. Note that there is not a single audio magazine nor cable manufacture which would place there product cables/wire behind room treatments in the pantheon of the basics of a true audio system. Yes you can hear a difference in anything that comes electronically to your ears. But given all of the other more critical aspects of building a system, why would you waste, time and money on cables, wire, when there is so much else to do. And there is no way determine the efficacy of a particular cable without buying it, because there is no way to even begin to evaluate it without buying it. I mean think about it. Almost a decade on this Forum I've never once heard anybody say that "you know, if you are going to buy a pair of '57 Klipschorns, XYZ cable's going to raise your listening experience to a new level. Or, "oh my gosh, if you got a pair of RF7's you got to run them with SlickyBoyCable #3. I wonder why. In audio, as in all else, there are peddlers, and there are peddlers. To my mind the cable shills are the used-car salesmen, the time-share hawkers,the Nigerian internet scammers of the audio world. If we are going to allow passive components into the realm of audio shouldn't we be dealing with all of the other passive components in the stereo realm and their effect on a system Ie:. Amplifier cases. Does cocoba wood sound better than aluminum. Record sleeves. Does a plastic sleeve evidence a cheaper listening experience then rice paper? Do you realize that hand carved ivory knobs from threatened cape elephants sound much better than crocodile wrapped knobs from Florida. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) If you do something with your system and say you hear an improvement, many will want you to provide some kind of evidence to support it, preferably something in the form of measurements. Provide the evidence or measurements, and it somehow never seems to be good enough. I was on another forum today reading responses by a few on why bypassing and charge coupled or battery biased crossovers wouldn't work. There were plenty providing relevant data, so the problem wasn't a lack of data -- the problem was a complete unwillingness on the part of the detractors to examine and evaluate what was presented. It was apparent that no amount of data was going to satisfy those whose minds were already closed off to any information that might persuade them otherwise. It got worse when someone described what the implementation sounded like to them. Measuring_speaker_cables.pdf Speaker_cables.pdf Speaker_cables(3).pdf RF effects on AF.pdf Edited January 24, 2014 by DeanG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssh Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 No one who tastes no difference in PB&J sandwiches is an audiophile. SSH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) 'Amplifier cases. Does cocoba wood sound better than aluminum. ' Joule electra sells an upgraded wood case on there higher end amps asserting that it improves the sound Its called the musicwood chassis Edited January 24, 2014 by joessportster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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