bracurrie Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Be gentle here. Opinions based on evidence can be persuasive if you understand the evidence, but ultimately we rationalize our choices and thats ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Did anyone bother to download and read the technical articles I attached in the original thread? I remember reading those articles years ago and enjoyed reading them again. Thanks for posting them. I also wonder if certain people read the Audioholics articles that were linked in the video, articles that involve testing cables. Those tests results provide solid evidence which formed the basis for their position that many cable companies are making fraudulent claims about their products. Their testing methods are clearly explained, so anyone who wishes to disagree with their results can say where they went wrong with their methodology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 (edited) We know they're making fraudulent claims, but that's not the point of the discussion. Fraudulent claims doesn't do away with the fact that wire is an interface that effects the behavior of the components it's connected to, or that some wire types or topology are more ideal than others. For example, we learn that in spite of the continued insistence that zip cord is all that anyone ever needs, it's not really all that ideal, and that some audiophile favorites, like Goertz ribbon cable, can actually cause some amplifiers to go into oscillation. It pays to be open minded and to learn a few things. http://www.southampton.ac.uk/~apm3/diyaudio/Connections.html Edited January 25, 2014 by DeanG 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 What I got from the discussion is that expensive wire are like ghosts--Some people are sensitive enough to appreciate them and some aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 What I got from the discussion is that expensive wire are like ghosts--Some people are sensitive enough to appreciate them and some aren't. Very well stated another way is that people are not as attune to the change the cable makes, maybe because they focus on some other part of the frequency band or imaging, things like that. Everyone has their hot buttons. A question for DeanG, mdeneen, and the rest, I stated in the original thread that I had purchased a fair amount of 16 gauge Carol Command silver plate cable from Summit Source 1. because I could not get a higher gauge any more 2. djk's information on gauge correlation to higher frequencies with skin effect, and 3. I really think this cable cleans up some of the muddy sound in the mids. You don't notice it until you switch. Noticed it on multiple speakers from k-horns to klf-30s. The question, if I was to use this 16 gauge wire in multiples for say a 10 foot run, based on capacitive and inductive values, would it be better to use the wire in braided fashion or make a ribbon cable out of the multiple strands? I think the different implementations will yield different sound. Thoughts? Sorry to sidetrack the conversation though I think it is very relevant to cable discussion and cable layout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 We know they're making fraudulent claims, but that's not the point of the discussion. Fraudulent claims doesn't do away with the fact that wire is an interface that effects the behavior of the components it's connected to, or that some wire types or topology are more ideal than others. If you had read the Audioholics articles describing their cable tests and the conclusions they drew from those test results you would find that they agree with what you wrote that I highlighted in boldface. Basically, they can hear differences in some of the wires they tested and the differences can be explained by the wire's electrical characteristics that they measured. http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/skin-effect-relevance-in-speaker-cables http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/cable-distortion-and-dielectric-biasing-debunked http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/top-ten-signs-an-audio-cable-vendor-is-selling-you-snake-oil http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-cable-gauge Their recommendations of the Kimber and Blue Jeans speaker cables are based on science and either of these cables would be a good choice. Neither of these cables are through-the-roof expensive. I would certainly trust what these guys say before I would believe what the snake oil peddlers claim regarding their products. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 What I got from the discussion is that expensive wire are like ghosts--Some people are sensitive enough to appreciate them and some aren't. Very well stated another way is that people are not as attune to the change the cable makes, maybe because they focus on some other part of the frequency band or imaging, things like that. Everyone has their hot buttons. A question for DeanG, mdeneen, and the rest, I stated in the original thread that I had purchased a fair amount of 16 gauge Carol Command silver plate cable from Summit Source 1. because I could not get a higher gauge any more 2. djk's information on gauge correlation to higher frequencies with skin effect, and 3. I really think this cable cleans up some of the muddy sound in the mids. You don't notice it until you switch. Noticed it on multiple speakers from k-horns to klf-30s. The question, if I was to use this 16 gauge wire in multiples for say a 10 foot run, based on capacitive and inductive values, would it be better to use the wire in braided fashion or make a ribbon cable out of the multiple strands? I think the different implementations will yield different sound. Thoughts? Sorry to sidetrack the conversation though I think it is very relevant to cable discussion and cable layout. The answer would depend on the equipment you are using. Some amplifiers are sensitive to capacitance and will oscillate if the speaker cable is a high capacitance design. Spacing the conductors will reduce capacitance and increase the inductance of the cable. Many solid state amplifiers use an output inductor built into the amplifier, but not all of them. Naim, for example, requires the use of their proprietary speaker cable because they do not use an output inductor with many of their products. Their cable provides the required inductance that the amplifier needs. As a general recommendation the high inductance design is a safer bet. YMMV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I thought the beer is what made the blonde beautiful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 (edited) Did anyone bother to download and read the technical articles I attached in the original thread? oh yes... I have a set of Nordost and a woven sub lead for sale if anyone wants the crap. I could not be happier than with my basic "passive" bluejeans. Edited January 25, 2014 by Schu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tblake10 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 If it is agreed that the choice of wire can have an effect on the sound then it would stand to reason there will be differing opinions on which sound is the best. I use blue jeans speaker wire and interconnects in my system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 (edited) Sure. The argument is the same for amplifiers, speakers, source players. For many people, this is a totally subjective pursuit. The opinion that matters to you should be yours. Wow--It seems discussing wire is completely different than talkin' about politics. Edited January 25, 2014 by tkdamerica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary p Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 While we're at it what about expensive replacement power cords. Does this discussion apply to that as well ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 These effects of wire are may be audible. If you can't hear them on your own, how is it beneficial to you to take the advice of some third party who hears them? What sort of idea is that? I don't mean that recommendations are not important - they are. What I mean is that if you are in doubt about the effects of wire, LISTEN rather than proclaiming what others may have heard. I would like to remark that it is important to try any component in your own system before buying it. Listening to demonstrations at a store won't tell you how the component that you're interested in will perform in your system. Even if you are purchasing a complete system from the store, you won't know how the speakers will sound in your room until you get home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 It wasn't too long ago that one could buy all sorts of things to try at home and then return without incident or restocking fee---Nowadays not so much. I am AMAZED how many people buy whole speaker systems on the internet and rely on others' opinion--crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 Did anyone bother to download and read the technical articles I attached in the original thread? Hey Dean, I did look over the article. However, I'm readily admit I lack the technical chops to evaluate what the authors were saying. And what are all those squiggly lines they love to put in these types of articles? Anyway, I did note one thing I thought was telling, but perhaps not. In one of the Bateman articles the author notes that he found beneficial differences in something called Jenving Supra wire, and on the very same page where he mentions this, there is a very, very large ad, for you guessed it, Jenving Supra cables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) In the world of "Class A" tube that iv been running quite a wile, it amazes me the cables and "Gold Plated" stuff that is on the market. I stay out of Audiophile stores just for the reason I will likely be thrown out, as soon as I start asking a customer why in the samhell he is spending $400 on a pair of tuner to amp cables?, I just point out the same wire size good connectors for around $100, and that is what I run. Just the other day I saw an outlet, yes one of those things we have in our walls, you know, the wall socket, they were asking (and Getting) $140 bucks for these critters. the only thing special ? it was gold plated! Being in electrical engineering for the better part of 40+ years, this seller gave me the stink eye. Edited January 26, 2014 by minermark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 The thing to believe is your own ears. If one needs confirmation from someone else about how a certain wire sounds, a hopeless situation ensues. Here's what I keep reading around here in various forms, " You can't trust snake oil salesmen about wire - therefore wire makes no difference." I hope I don't have to point out the logical error in that argument. All advertising is propaganda. Just accept that and move on. Leave it be, ignore it. You know by now that drinking Coors isn't going to get you a beautiful blonde at the end of the bar, right? But you still might enjoy beer. These effects of wire are audible. If you can't hear them on your own, how is it beneficial to you to take the advice of some third party who hears them? What sort of idea is that? I don't mean that recommendations are not important - they are. What I mean is that if you are in doubt about the effects of wire, LISTEN rather than proclaiming what others may have heard. It's this simple: Try it. If you can hear the effect, use it to your advantage. If you can't, what's the difference to you if someone else can? To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, "Now Mark, there you go again." All advertising is not propaganda. Fer crying out loud, there are many fine builders and manufacturers of audio equipment that give a honest description of their products. Klipsch and Juicy Music come to mind. There are also a lot of banditos in audio and most of them seem to be drawn to cables because they love sales based on promoting a phony belief system, rather then something that is quantifiable. They probably all got their start driving white vans. Fancy cables are a feat of prestidigitation, nothing more, nothing less. You want to hear a change in your system. Take the ends off of your speakers wires, and clip a half inch off and reconnect them. If you ears are any good you will hear a difference, and that is more than likely what you are hearing when you change out cables or wire. Better termination! Now take you Monster cable, or monster wire, or go higher up in the chain into the realm of fancy cable and you most certainly will hear a difference. Because the purveyors of these devices are deliberately introducing artifacts into the cable and what kind of engineering or science is that. Ya know, if cables were any factor in audio, legitimate main-stream component companies would be engineering cables and either including them, or offering them as part of an audio system. I could be wrong, but I can't think of anybody, not the Sony's of the World, or Boutique players like, say, Conrad Johnson, design and include cable in their product line. Sure Klipsch did use Monster wire for awhile, but I seriously doubt you could find a single engineer in the company that thought it made any improvement to their speakers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) The thing to believe is your own ears. If one needs confirmation from someone else about how a certain wire sounds, a hopeless situation ensues. Here's what I keep reading around here in various forms, " You can't trust snake oil salesmen about wire - therefore wire makes no difference." I hope I don't have to point out the logical error in that argument. All advertising is propaganda. Just accept that and move on. Leave it be, ignore it. You know by now that drinking Coors isn't going to get you a beautiful blonde at the end of the bar, right? But you still might enjoy beer. These effects of wire are audible. If you can't hear them on your own, how is it beneficial to you to take the advice of some third party who hears them? What sort of idea is that? I don't mean that recommendations are not important - they are. What I mean is that if you are in doubt about the effects of wire, LISTEN rather than proclaiming what others may have heard. It's this simple: Try it. If you can hear the effect, use it to your advantage. If you can't, what's the difference to you if someone else can? I forgot one important point - fear. I sense that for a lot of people they have a fear that if they admit to hearing a difference, they are admitting to being suckered by the greedy snake oil salesman (SOS). And in today's environment of ripoffs, burns, scams, falling victim to SOS is the equivalent of sending $10,000 to Nigeria in the hope of getting that million dollars being held in trust for you. I think this view, this fear, is best represented by Marty's comments. There's a big peer pressure not to be a "sucker." The SOS has been built up into the largest possible boogey man. The mere mention of wire brings the SOS police into the discussion immediately. Kind of like a neighborhood watch. The SOS police believe that every adult is a child who will fall victim to giving up their house in trade for a pair of speaker wires. In some way that's admirable. But it can also become just another authoritarian steamrolling regime. The important message might be something like: "Hey, a lot of claims are wildly exaggerated." But really, is there an adult who owns an audio system who doesn't already know that? I kinda think fear is too strong a word. Sure people don't want to waste their money. Sure they don't want to make a mistake. The same for audio as in any other transaction. One other point. I've never got the idea that we are big boys and we don't need any help form anybody else. I can assure you that the closets of this great land are stuffed to overflowing with crappy electronics we collectively got snookered on. Indeed, if there is a single person on this Forum that hasn't bought a bad audio product and one time or another, I'll eat my hat. Me I've learned valuable knowledge here while also having lots of fun. I have few certainties in audio and do the best I can to keep an open mind. But when it comes to cables "I'm on a mission from God" Edited January 26, 2014 by thebes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) Check out these 45,000 dollar patch cords, Marty...that's a lot of bud boxes and cake pans... http://www.thecableco.com/Product/Siltech-Emperor-Double-Crown Even the name of them reeks of excessive wealth. "unmatched performance in the soundstage of your imagination." LSD 25 can do the same for less cost. OTOH, a guy can hear differences in different patch cords if he tries hard enough. Edited January 26, 2014 by mike stehr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) $50,000 turntables and $150 wall sockets, are not so much about audio as they are about commerce. Money has to keep moving. If it doesn't, the system collapses. Small money to big money, it all has to keep moving. If you have a very big pile of money, it won't move very fast buying $3 wall sockets, and $200 turntables. Since everything is relative, it's easy to do the math. If you need to add three 0s to describe the income, you need to add three 0s to the price of the objects for sale. This illustrates two things. First, just because one has money doesn't mean (s)he's smart. Secondly, a fool and his money are soon parted. You have to get that guy's money circulating, and doing it a few dollars at a time won't work. A famous CEO was prosecuted a few years back for stealing from his company. He had bought a $1700 shower curtain, and other similar crazy priced items normal people would spend $12 bucks on. It's all relative. We should celebrate the idea that we can figure out ways to keep all the money circulating! I doubt the thief in question is circulating much money on durable goods while in prison. Edited January 26, 2014 by Don Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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