ClaudeJ1 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Well Engineered CD's are just fine and MP3 files with 320 VBR are indistinguishable. My millage varies here. mp3 is one toke over the line. I have a theatre organ recording at that rate that is as good sounding as if it were DSD. I was intrigued, so I made one of Perlman playing a Stradivarius. No good. So, IMHO it is going to depend on the material. Music originating from electric guitars, synths, and such and instruments like a pipe organ generate little in the upper harmonics...but pianos, Strads, and such are totally reliant on them for their signature. CD is about as far as one can go without impacting them...if you don't listen to such things, it doesn't matter. Squeeze 'til it does. Dave Fascinating how many times we have to delve into this subject. Seems there are too many ways to get the end product and a lot of opinions on what works and doesn't. Dave, like you I think I have it figured out. But I'm not talking. Too many ways to be misunderstood. I will say this - Its easy to be satisfied when the music is terrific. It's about the ENGINEERING of the recording, mike, monitors, etc. without regard for "radio compression" of modern times that takes the life (dynamics) out of the music. Don't blame the media for idiots in charge of the knobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Controlled listening test many moons ago determined that Variable Bit Rate (VBR) 320 was indistinguishable from CD. Have complete data on source material, playback chain, etc? Without it, this is hearsay. I'd say there are far more examples of well engineered material where this would be true than not. I mentioned specifically extremely complex material...the difference between a Boesendorfer and a Steinway grand or an Amati and a Stradivarius. Claude, there are people out there who can not only tell you the difference between a Strad and another great violin, they can tell you WHICH Strad they are listening to and who is playing it. I am not one of these. A true test would require a LOT of experiments and would need to concentrate on highly trained ears, not guys like you and I. It's never a good idea to generalize from the specific. Very bad medicine... Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracurrie Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 It's never a good idea to generalize from the specific. Very bad medicine...Its also pointless to argue opinions. But it sure is fun to try! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 To add to the frustration it is even more irritating the games they play (whoever "they" are). Like the SACD hybrid version of Pink Floyd compared to my original CD that I bought 30 years ago. They made the non-SACD audio on the hybrid version sound like krap compared to the SACD, I can only assume, so people would oooh and ahhh over the SACD. My DAC is much better than my SACD player so I'm back to listening to the original ripped to FLAC. To complicate things... I might just prefer the earlier master as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) [= Its also pointless to argue opinions. But it sure is fun to try! I only commented that the science involved in the 320kbps vs. Redbook A/B was not stated, therefore remains a question. If a person says they cannot hear the difference, I'll not suggest otherwise. I certainly can on certain material, even with 63 year old ears. My hypothesis would be that I could, using a single playback chain and space, provide an A/B test of the same variety that produced conflicting results. Attached is a pdf which does a good job of explaining why that might be the case, and one from Stereophile (edited) showing measureable losses at 320kpbs mp3. I think these show that there is a degree of measurability that may be a predictor of what we might hear. In my case, it certainly explains my surprise that a 320kbps recording of a theater organ sounded perfect, while conversion of a piano recording I personally made did not. I fully agree that when all is said and done, it's all about what an INDIVIDUAL hears and no amount of science or others opinion is, or should, change that. But it is less OK to not understand that there is some degree of science involved that can explain why one person might perceive one thing and another does not. And it has nothing to do with right or wrong. It is entirely about the nature of a persons preference. If I listened to nothing but studio produced rock and roll, or theater organs, 320kbps mp3 would be fine for everything. But if I want to bore myself silly with chamber music played on Guarneri, Amati, Stradivari, or ponder my navel as I attempt to puzzle out a Boesendorfer from a Steinway, these papers suggest a different format is going to be required. Dave Stereophile320.pdf harmoncs.pdf Edited February 3, 2014 by Mallette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracurrie Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Dave, I really appreciate your experience and research into these matters a great deal. I plan to expand my listening of piano and violin based recordings and after taking your posts into consideration I now have a better understanding of why I like what I like. I spend a great deal of time in the summer at Chautauqua listening to live classical and chamber music, maybe as much as 20 hours a week. Most is not amplified in any way, but when it is I tend to not to enjoy it as much. Here Nashville the symphony used to play at TPAC and the acoustics were so bad they had to amplify so the woodwinds could be heard and I hated it. There must be an art to live amplification for classical that I bet doesn't get the attention it should. BTW Chautauqua has one hell of an outdoor organ. You should check it out. Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 There must be an art to live amplification for classical that I bet doesn't get the attention it should. In theory, the outcome could be better than any system. 1. No transcoding. 2. No media 3. One step beyond "direct to disc/ADC." 4. Known listening conditions. And, of course, world class engineer. In fact, however, I want my money back when I am confronted with loudspeakers at an acoustic instrument concert. To paraphrase Virgil Fox: "Like finding birdshit in a cuckoo cluck." Simply makes no sense. I have first class speakers, a quality amplification system, and some of the finest engineered recordings the human race has produced. Why in the name of all that is holy would I want to listen to Itzhak Perlman and his Strad passed through a microphone to loudspeakers by some facilities resident PA "engineer?" I wish more performers would just say "no" to microphones. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracurrie Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Amen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Man...never heard of the Chautauqua Organ! Looks like a real HOOT with all those trompettes en chamade. Lord knows how they keep in in tune... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
consistent Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 Let's get the band to come and play at home! But then again I am sure some of us would love to tweak the sound while others would shout 'sit down up front'! Tastes change...the best red wine (voted) in the world is now made in China! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I am told that purchasing a dedicated media player (beefed up computer) takes it to another level but really how good can it get? I am impressed already.I felt the same, but because digital music files are digital data, I took the computer plunge only to be better able to manage the data. Then I discovered Pure Music for critical listening. It uses Itunes is the database for music files it plays. As an added benefit Itunes plays well with my Iphone for portability and when not critically listening it sends output to my whole house audio system or any other Apple TV device in the home. Great source and output flexibility.HD for me is anything that is not an MP3. MP3s generally have a reproduction flaw that can irritate my listening enjoyment on a critical listening sound system. Although I have and enjoy MP3s away from critical listening, the added clarity and dynamics of well mastered flac, dsd and Apple lossless music files is noticeable with critical listening. So much so I had to find a quieter amp attached to my tweeter horns for quieter jazz, vocal and classical HD music. For me the computer and sound card became my pre amp so on balance it is even money for me. BTW Pure Vinyl, a companion product to Pure Music, allows me to use the inputs of my sound card to easily play LPs or use any other analogue source. For me a computer front end for my critical listening system gives me great enjoyment at a reasonable price with great flexibility at a reasonable cost. Thank for the 'Pure music' tip, need to look into this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Man...never heard of the Chautauqua Organ! Looks like a real HOOT with all those trompettes en chamade. Lord knows how they keep in in tune... chauorgan.jpg Dave I'll take 10 rows back dead center, play on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracurrie Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Man...never heard of the Chautauqua Organ! Looks like a real HOOT with all those trompettes en chamade. Lord knows how they keep in in tune... chauorgan.jpg Dave They only added the bottom register several years ago when they did a refurb. Every summer they service and tune the beast. It's glorious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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