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How necessary is a subwoofer?


JiminSTL
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Thanks, all, for your comments. Have a further question for all of those who are "technically" inclined: Given the Pioneer receiver I mentioned, plus the frequency ranges of the KLF speakers and the KV-4 center, plus their sensitivity ratings, what additional should I be looking for from my/a sub?

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Thanks, all, for your comments. Have a further question for all of those who are "technically" inclined: Given the Pioneer receiver I mentioned, plus the frequency ranges of the KLF speakers and the KV-4 center, plus their sensitivity ratings, what additional should I be looking for from my/a sub?

MCACC will take care of integrating everything.

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nor would I want (IMHO) to compromise an all horn system with a couple of non-horn subs for the same reason. :D

Dave

I agree with you here, why mate a distortion box sub with a nice set of horns.

Is that not the reason we use horns in the first place, to remove much of the distortion ?

Seamless transition from woofer to subwoofer is what most of us are after.

That seems a little harsh (distortion box).

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nor would I want (IMHO) to compromise an all horn system with a couple of non-horn subs for the same reason. :D

Dave

I agree with you here, why mate a distortion box sub with a nice set of horns.

Is that not the reason we use horns in the first place, to remove much of the distortion ?

Seamless transition from woofer to subwoofer is what most of us are after.

That seems a little harsh (distortion box).

Its a fact that direct radiating subs are much higher in distortion than a horn loaded sub.

Put 2 cabinets next to each other using the same driver, one horn loaded & one ported. You will hear the difference.

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Im sure your right but that doest make them distortion boxes lol

Read PWKs paper on the subject. I've heard good sounding non-horn subs, but, as PWK predicted in the 8 Card, the are compromises that can be avoided.

PWK violated his own paper with several models. it isn't a sin as long as one knows PRECISELY why they are doing it and have good reason to do so.

Dave

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If the KLF 30's are in decent shape, get 'em! I love mine and they dig pretty deep on the bass. (I use KLF 10's as rear speakers). IMO a better center (especially a KLF C7) would make the biggest impact on your HT. I picked up my 10's and C7 well before I added a sub and the difference was huge in terms of sound quality. I happily got rid of my old Synergy surrounds and center. Didn't realize what a sonic mismatch I'd been experiencing. I added the 12" Klipsch reference sub later and crossed it over at 40 hz. It's great, but I'm glad I got the basics right first. Good luck, welcome and Go Cards!!

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That would mean my cornwalls are just big distortion boxes :unsure:

A man from Vermont was once asked: "How's your wife?" to which, he replied: "Compared to what?"

An thus the story goes about DR vs. HORN loading woofers. Which is about efficiency bandwidth product against cone motion. If you horn load a driver, you make it more efficient, reduce power input/cone motion, but you narrow the bandwidth and change the directivity.

If a speaker moves, it distorts. All measurable BUT what is tolerable? What is your personal threshold of detectability either way and is it improving with your program material?

Horn loading the drivers that move the most are the woofers and subs, but we are more sensitive to midrange anomalies, right? But at what cost of $$ and space?

I'm sure a room full of 18's can match tapped horns and full horns in the sub world. It's time, money and space. Compared to what? Threshold of detectability, comparison, space, and cash. WAF???? Won't touch that one 'cause it's not technical, it's emotional.

Edited by ClaudeJ1
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DR subs are not distortion boxes. Yes, if a cone moves and produces multiple frequencies there is intermodulation distortion. In the bass region of subwoofers distortion level less than 10% are acceptable according to CEA data because it is not readily apparent to most people. Our ears are most sensitive to changes in the 1.5 kHz-3 or 4 kHz band. Small changes in this band greatly reflect our preception of the music. Most music bass is limited to around 40 Hz on the low end but some intruments can go lower like the piano and pipe organ. Take thes few instruments out and the subwoofer bandwidth is maybe 40-80 Hz for 95 + % of the rest of the music. The number of octaves in the subwoofer band is realatively small and sound produce in the subwoofer band add weighs and richness to music for the most part. Also direct radiator subs don't produce high distortion until pushed near the limits. Proper setup and integration are the key to using any subwoofer. Are Khorns nice speaker-Yes. Are Cornwall nice speakers-Yes and I don't own a pair of either. :P

Edited by derrickdj1
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I love to see people faces when I watch a movie with some good LFE. Four 18 in drivers never fail to impress. Rarely do I run them hot.

And this is my quandry...I'm goin for 10hz as much as possible for HT. Why 10? Because I can. It takes the "what if" factor out of my mind. I know I can get there with an Inuke and 4 sealed 18s (or IB, but my current setup won't allow for it). As much as I'd love to throw in some horn subs, one of the only DIY subs I've seen that can hit 10 is the Gjallerhorn, but I can build two or three Dayton sealed 18s for the price of one Gjallerhorn (amp power moot point). That gives me greater coverage and placement options.

If I could settle for 15-16hz, then Lilwreckers all day long.

I'd like to think that with 4 18s not nearly being pushed to their limits (unless goin crazy with some bass tests), I could achieve both the SPL levels and extension I am going for, without distorting myself to smithereens.

All that being said, them dang horn subs still intrigue me. Good thing I'm fairly young. Guess I'll have to go both routes and see what my ears tell me, :)

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