How necessary is a subwoofer?

[beeker]

I love my subs. If i did not have big bass in my life in the form of a very low frequency bass driver/s i would not sleep tight till i got some. I'm very serious

[ClaudeJ1]

I'd like to think that with 4 18s not nearly being pushed to their limits (unless goin crazy with some bass tests), I could achieve both the SPL levels and extension I am going for, without distorting myself to smithereens. All that being said, them dang horn subs still intrigue me. Good thing I'm fairly young. Guess I'll have to go both routes and see what my ears tell me,

The conundrum of choice vs. distortion detectability. I used to have VMPS large bass reflex subs. Their measured performance rolled at 27 hz. even though they claimed to go to 17. Yes they were corner loaded. I now have twin 18" monster drivers with reflex cabs I'm about to mount them in for testing. We shall see after I measure.

For reference, I have Tuba HT downstairs and twin Danley DTS-10's. Just sold my home built tapped horn with a single LAB12 driver. The owner has huge horns and is very happy with just that. The Danley DTS-10's are the closest thing to a Gjallerhorn, since two 12" drivers have the same cone area as one 18", both horn loaded with 24 foot horns with output from both sides of the cone (horn bass reflex??).

So far, all I can say is that it's a trade-off between more lumber for less distortion, since tapped or straight horn efficiencies can get to be between 95 and 110 db/watt.

Whereas the really good, big sub drivers are down around 87 db efficiency, maybe 90 db/watt in a good reflex box. Which means 10X more power. BUT power is cheap, so having two to four 18's in a room can still do some structural damage. Either way, modern AUDIO, whether 2 or 11 channels, greatly benefits from any kind of SUB bass! This is true regardless of type, cost, size, or distortion threshold in our human hearing/feeling mechanisms.

I'm not a purist either way, but I have made sound choices. No pun intended.

Edited February 21, 2014 by ClaudeJ1

[ClaudeJ1]

Im sure your right but that doest make them distortion boxes lol

A man from Vermont was once asked: "How's your wife?" To which, he replied: "Compared to what?"

Klipsch chief Engineer, Roy Delgado, just released a huge sub bass horn for theater installations. It uses the same, rugged 18" driver as their bass reflex KPT 884 and adds a passive 18" inside the horn. THX theaters only spec subs to 25 hz. and this one goes to 20 hz. He has designed many horns, including the Jubilee, K510, K402, Direct Radiator subs, small horns, big horns, bass reflex, etc. He believes in horns for bass first.

So those who pursue 10 Hz. bass in the home are doing so because they can because of ROOM GAIN.

Big Theaters are another story, it's about power output at the lowest distortion possible, and all horn systems provide this with lower distortion and power consumption. The VERY BEST big systems out there are all horn loaded to produce the lowest distortion, highest intelligibility and detail AND high power handling.

So even with those big horn, once placed in a home, power consumption goes way down and distortion levels are LOWERED to an almost ridiculously low level in the process. It's overkill, perhaps, but I'm in that camp.

Paul Klipsch proved all this stuff in his papers over 60 years ago. Physics have not changed since then. If you have the space, use horns and smaller amplifiers. If you don't have the space, use direct radiators with bigger amps.

BUT until you have owned and compared the two, you will never know the difference. "Compared to what?"

Compared to a full horn load at a given sound output, all direct radiators are distortion boxes. It's a measurable FACT, not an opinion.

When you get used to an all horn system from top to bottom, you train your ears, and you will become more sensitive to distortion, but only on lesser Direct Radiator systems from other manufacturers. On the better units, done right (like Four 18's) and Klipsch Towers you may not be able to tell so easily.

Edited February 21, 2014 by ClaudeJ1

[ClaudeJ1]

Regardless of type, subwoofers are necessary for modern program material, irrespective of channel count.

[derrickdj1]

ClaudeJ1, it is amazing how little power I use for the subs. The 7 lb Behringer amp are class D and are a good piece of gear to help in overall power management of the system. Power management is something we don't talk about often on the forum but, this is an important aspect in running a good audio system.

[Heritage_Head]

Im sure your right but that doest make them distortion boxes lol

A man from Vermont was once asked: "How's your wife?" To which, he replied: "Compared to what?"

Klipsch chief Engineer, Roy Delgado, just released a huge sub bass horn for theater installations. It uses the same, rugged 18" driver as their bass reflex KPT 884 and adds a passive 18" inside the horn. THX theaters only spec subs to 25 hz. and this one goes to 20 hz. He has designed many horns, including the Jubilee, K510, K402, Direct Radiator subs, small horns, big horns, bass reflex, etc. He believes in horns for bass first.

So those who pursue 10 Hz. bass in the home are doing so because they can because of ROOM GAIN.

Big Theaters are another story, it's about power output at the lowest distortion possible, and all horn systems provide this with lower distortion and power consumption. The VERY BEST big systems out there are all horn loaded to produce the lowest distortion, highest intelligibility and detail AND high power handling.

So even with those big horn, once placed in a home, power consumption goes way down and distortion levels are LOWERED to an almost ridiculously low level in the process. It's overkill, perhaps, but I'm in that camp.

Paul Klipsch proved all this stuff in his papers over 60 years ago. Physics have not changed since then. If you have the space, use horns and smaller amplifiers. If you don't have the space, use direct radiators with bigger amps.

BUT until you have owned and compared the two, you will never know the difference. "Compared to what?"

Compared to a full horn load at a given sound output, all direct radiators are distortion boxes. It's a measurable FACT, not an opinion.

When you get used to an all horn system from top to bottom, you train your ears, and you will become more sensitive to distortion, but only on lesser Direct Radiator systems from other manufacturers. On the better units, done right (like Four 18's) and Klipsch Towers you may not be able to tell so easily.

Looking at it that way all speakers are distortion boxes lol.

[etc6849]

This is where I'm at too. I have a flat response down to ~18 hz with my two Klipsch RT-12d subs (one DR and two PRs) and Audyssey Multi EQ XT32 with individual Sub EQ for each sub. They're very musical subs and sound great with my La Scala II's... My system sounds very very good. I showed it to a co-worker who's really into AV stuff and he was very impressed.

BUT, I really have to wonder what these 4x18" sealed 10 hz systems sound like and what I'm missing in movies. The Gjallerhorn looks very big, I don't think I'll ever own a home big enough to run two of them as they don't have basements where I'm at (and I'm a firm believer in multiple subs).

I used RF-83's before, and I now prefer the sound of the LS II bass bin. This wasn't the case initially, but drums really do sound more like drums now. I think I got used to the punchy/less accurate bass from the RF-83's, but after a month with the LS II's I was sold. Of course, the mid-range horn sold me the first day... If anyone's in the Carolina's with a horn loaded system or one of these DIY DR 10hz systems, I'd love to have a listen! The problem is it'd be a PITA to build both systems and then pick one.

I love to see people faces when I watch a movie with some good LFE. Four 18 in drivers never fail to impress. Rarely do I run them hot.

And this is my quandry...I'm goin for 10hz as much as possible for HT. Why 10? Because I can. It takes the "what if" factor out of my mind. I know I can get there with an Inuke and 4 sealed 18s (or IB, but my current setup won't allow for it). As much as I'd love to throw in some horn subs, one of the only DIY subs I've seen that can hit 10 is the Gjallerhorn, but I can build two or three Dayton sealed 18s for the price of one Gjallerhorn (amp power moot point). That gives me greater coverage and placement options.

If I could settle for 15-16hz, then Lilwreckers all day long.

I'd like to think that with 4 18s not nearly being pushed to their limits (unless goin crazy with some bass tests), I could achieve both the SPL levels and extension I am going for, without distorting myself to smithereens.

All that being said, them dang horn subs still intrigue me. Good thing I'm fairly young. Guess I'll have to go both routes and see what my ears tell me,

[Quiet_Hollow]

If anyone's in the Carolina's with a horn loaded system or one of these DIY DR 10hz systems, I'd love to have a listen! The problem is it'd be a PITA to build both systems and then pick one.

The ear doesn't "hear" 10 Hz capability. Rather, the body "experiences" it.

There's HT extremists that will swear up and down that with enough SPL they can hear it....and it's amazing or whatever.

You feel it...plain and simple...and it'll make you very agitated. At realistic SPL's, it's like getting shook like a baby.

If you're "hearing" it, it's not 10 Hz. The confusion comes about because at sufficient SPL it modulates everything above it. You can modulate 30 Hz at 10 Hz and it'll sound absolutely evil, but the room won't be splitting at the seams quite like if there was a genuine amount of power at that fundamental.

I've had, on two separate occasions, the opportunity to experience professional installations of the rotary subwoofer. A 5 Hz burp at full power can take the entire wing of a house and bounce it up and down like a basketball on its foundation...enough to rearrange the furniture in a single pass.

Below 15 Hz, the air movement simply becomes a breeze and where money is a concern, pound-for-pound, fans and valves work better at modulating at those frequencies.

I'd lean more towards a couple of THT's, and if more effect is desired after that, then eventually buck up for a rotary woofer install to take over below 30 Hz.

[jason str]

The 16 Hz pipe organ you hear is really the harmonics from the note IE 32 Hz, 64 Hz.

There is a mathmatical equation for this available on the web somewhere if somebody wants more information on the subject.

[etc6849]

The rotary woofer looks interesting if you have $24k to drop on a single woofer!?! However, I'd be more interested in adding a used d-box system to my setup as it'd be cheaper overall.

I wonder how linear (low versus high volume response) the rotary woofer is? Also, I'm also skeptical about how fast it can respond to transients. But, then again, when you must have a 1 Hz response, what else are you going to use?

PS: when I said listen, I obviously meant listen to such a system and also feel the lower frequencies. Thanks for the clarification though

Below 15 Hz, the air movement simply becomes a breeze and where money is a concern, pound-for-pound, fans and valves work better at modulating at those frequencies.

Edited February 26, 2014 by etc6849

[ClaudeJ1]

Looking at it that way all speakers are distortion boxes lol.

Yes, they are. And all audio systems are an illusion (albeit, a good one) because they all sound like crap compared to a live acoustic performance in a good room.

[NBPK402]

My simple answer to the thread title is... Only if you want to go lower than your current speakers will go. In my situation yes a sub is required as I want to go to 10-15hz.

[Quiet_Hollow]

The rotary woofer looks interesting if you have $24k to drop on a single woofer!?!

Well there are boys with dreams, and then there are men with the resources to act upon them.

You can't look at it as "a single subwoofer". That completely misses the boat. There's is no physical comparison between the fan assembly and a dynamic driver...only the acoustic end-result.

It's an engine...a pump. It's all about putting horsepower into the air at maximum efficiency at those frequencies, with the least amount of distortion.

I wonder how linear (low versus high volume response) the rotary woofer is?

Very. It can gingerly swing a door back and forth on it's hinges, all the way to what I said before....as in reset the entire structure of house in one big breath.

Also, I'm also skeptical about how fast it can respond to transients.

I'll put it terms we can all relate to. It's convincing enough to feel just like lightening struck inside room. It has no problem delivering that instantaneous, full-body concussion you receive when watching the big aerial fireworks displays....the really big ones...the ones that take up your entire field of view. It can make the floor or ground beneath your feet feel spongy without so much as a peep anywhere else. Things will just be moving around room but you can't figure out why.

I was never skeptical, but I was however exceptionally curious so I started searching out installations. I was very fortunate to experience them and have been spoiled ever since.

That's why I whole-heartedly recommend the THT, because the next logical step to obtaining those final 3-4 octaves of infrasound at such realistic level and fidelity requires something like this device. At five figures and requiring a house, not everyone is simply going to get there hands on one.

[etc6849]

I'm not sure what your intent is with the "boy with a dream" crap, but I make good money and can afford one if I really wanted it and saved. Personally, I'm not sure what the point would be to wasting $24k on something with no resale value either, but to each their own.

Seems like a gimmick to me. It'd be prone to mechanical wear and is extremely overpriced. No way will it last more than 5-10 years with all the mechanical forces involved either. You can see in the youtube the stresses it's putting on the motor. The bearings on a small motor like that just aren't designed for those types of stresses day in and day out. Just like when you try to use a drill press to do milling, you will wear out the bearings.

Like I said, D-Box is way more practical than this device. You can buy complete used setups for under $4-5k, they have both a subwoofer input and a program input (for special motion effects), it puts the energy where the people are (instead of the unevenly distributing it throughout a room), uses reliable hydraulics that will last for decades, etc...

Well there are boys with dreams, and then there are men with the resources to act upon them.

...

You can't look at it as "a single subwoofer". That completely misses the boat. There's is no physical comparison between the fan assembly and a dynamic driver...only the acoustic end-result.

It's an engine...a pump. It's all about putting horsepower into the air at maximum efficiency at those frequencies, with the least amount of distortion.

...

That's why I whole-heartedly recommend the THT, because the next logical step to obtaining those final 3-4 octaves of infrasound at such realistic level and fidelity requires something like this device. At five figures and requiring a house, not everyone is simply going to get there hands on one.

Edited February 26, 2014 by etc6849

[Heritage_Head]

What does boy with a dream even mean? I hope he didn't mean it the way it sounds. (because its a pretty low blow if he did)

[Quiet_Hollow]

I'm not sure what your intent is with the "boy with a dream" crap, but I make good money and can afford one if I really wanted it and saved. Personally, I'm not sure what the point would be to wasting $24k on something with no resale value either, but to each their own.

What does boy with a dream even mean? I hope he didn't mean it the way it sounds. (because its a pretty low blow if he did)

I was going for self-depreciation, but reading it back certainly sounds like a low blow.

Sorry for the apparent snark. I'll go detain myself in the thread-crapping honey pot.

[etc6849]

No harm done! Apology accepted. I couldn't read your angle very well as it's only represented by text on a screen after all... Don't get me wrong, if I ever have a chance to hear (e.g. feel) a rotary sub, of course I'd be interested.

I'm not sure what your intent is with the "boy with a dream" crap, but I make good money and can afford one if I really wanted it and saved. Personally, I'm not sure what the point would be to wasting $24k on something with no resale value either, but to each their own.

What does boy with a dream even mean? I hope he didn't mean it the way it sounds. (because its a pretty low blow if he did)

I was going for self-depreciation, but reading it back certainly sounds like a low blow.

Sorry for the apparent snark. I'll go detain myself in the thread-crapping honey pot.

Edited February 26, 2014 by etc6849

[CECAA850]

You can buy complete used setups for under $4-5k, they have both a subwoofer input and a program input (for special motion effects), it puts the energy where the people are (instead of the unevenly distributing it throughout a room), uses reliable hydraulics that will last for decades, etc...

Or you could build an IB and get 10Hz with no problem for half of that.

[etc6849]

I like this idea a lot... If my current home was permanent (I'm requried to move in a few years), I'd look into some of the infinite baffle designs. They look like great uses of space for sure, and I'll definitely consider them when I own my semi-retirement home.

In the meantime, I ended up ordering two buttkicker LFE kits: http://www.thebuttkicker.com/lfe-kit for an awesome deal ($233 plus shipping!!)... Had the place had a bunch, I'd have posted the deal, but I have a feeling I bought the only two as the vendor has since discontinued selling them.

The amps go down to 5 Hz (there's a home theater secrets review on the amp) and will support two LFE units, each receiving 1000 watts. This looks like a very affordable way to experience 5 Hz, since I got a great deal on them. The amps alone are probably worth the cost of the entire kit. I've never used any of the shakers though. The reviews look very good on these (5 stars and 4.5 stars for the kit).

You can buy complete used setups for under $4-5k, they have both a subwoofer input and a program input (for special motion effects), it puts the energy where the people are (instead of the unevenly distributing it throughout a room), uses reliable hydraulics that will last for decades, etc...

Or you could build an IB and get 10Hz with no problem for half of that.

Edited February 27, 2014 by etc6849

[garyrc]

That would mean my cornwalls are just big distortion boxes

Of course, as you know, Cornwalls are excellent speakers, and not big distortion boxes . A store I used to frequent had Klipschorns in two corners, with Cornwalls on the same wall. The bass sounded a little cleaner, and more "free floating" with the horn-loaded bass of the Khorns, but there was a little more bass punch -- on some recordings only -- with the Cornwalls. The Cornwalls were at a slight disadvantage because they were not jammed into the corners like the Khorns were (and needed to be). Horns tend to measure as having lower Frequency Modulation distortion. Back when PWK used to publish Total Modulation Distortion on the spec sheets for his speakers, the Khorn was rated as having 1/3 of the TMD of the Cornwall, but the question is, "How audible would that be?" In my experience, noticeable, but not a big deal unless it is an A-B comparison.