Economy- about to really hit the fan?

[TBrennan]

INE---You misunderstand Brett, he's not talking about Coney Island but A coney island, the Michigan term for a hot-dog stand. They take these whitebread Hygrade-Oscar Meyer type hot-dogs and smother them in chili and call it a coney island. Things are terrible, at least to this old Chicagoan raised on Viennas, David Bergs and Palestine Koshers.

[TBrennan]

Brett---So your fellow countrymen should work like dogs at poverty wages so you can enjoy a cheap hot-dog or hamburger, eh? And you call yourself a patriot? Where's your love and concern for your countrymen? Never mind, as long as you get yours, right? After reading your ignorant, bombastic ravings I had to quick remember whether MI stood for Michigan or Mississippi.

[tom67]

Its hard to believe that there are so many educated people who still insist that the fate of the economy depends on the party in power. Business cycles and collateral events come and go and it all really has little to do with the actions of the chief excutive at the time. Reagan and Clinton were the lucky occupants when conditions were improving while Carter and now Bush inherited deteriorating situations that had little to do with any action or inaction on their part.On their worst day, most private corporations outperform government.The economic crime of the century is not Enron or Worldcom which ultimately will affect only a small number of people over a short period of time. Meanwhile we and our employers pay 15% of every dollar we earn in Social Secuity and our government readily admits workers under age 60 will surely receive far less than they contribute. If you want to talk about gross fraud, lets start with the cases that cause the most damage. Though they posture endlessly,the president and congress have very little control over economic events---thank god! Things will improve and when they do it will be despite government and not because of it.

[T2K]

Tom asked:

"Brett---So your fellow countrymen should work like dogs at poverty wages so you can enjoy a cheap hot-dog or hamburger, eh? And you call yourself a patriot? Where's your love and concern for your countrymen? Never mind, as long as you get yours, right? After reading your ignorant, bombastic ravings I had to quick remember whether MI stood for Michigan or Mississippi."

Tom, although I disagree with Brett's selfish opinion and am quite certain that he has never tried to support a family working his a$$ off for $5.00 an hour, I also know that ignorance is not confined to the State of Mississippi. Especially when comparing that state to Michigan.

Mississippian's have a deep respect for their state's history. They possess real 'family values' and actually care about their neighbor's welfare. To spend time there is like a step back in time. It does not take a disater for residents there to step back and remember what in life matters most. Mississippi has not progressed to the more forward thinking that Brett's state, and many others, have.

Lincoln was a Republican, wasn't he?

Keith

[mobile homeless]

This thread is about on par with what I thought it would be. Brett's response is almost like a cardboard cutout with cliches used like packing peanuts for a cheap knick knack about to be sent parcel post....

Keith, as for the Republican Lincoln reference, do a bit of research on the history of the parties and their amusing flip in platform. I think it will make more sense.

I wouldnt mind discussions on politics/philosophy if the average forum participant didnt resort dogma and cliche as points of reference. That is what I have been referring to as "painful" and is what pervades a good many of these discussions brewing in variuos posts. Thankfully, there are a few that standout, but the more obtuse examples seem to stand out like a bad bruise on a pale-white upper thigh...

kh

[forresthump2]

Tom Hoffa says " It would be a good idea if the self-employed could pay into the fund for themselves and

thus be covered if things don't work out." You hear of a Personal Savings Account clown?

You know I hate todays Libbies and fully agree with Brett. He hits nail right on head. The liberals today need the same hit on the head.

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Go Forth and Hump the World

This message has been edited by forresthump2 on 07-13-2002 at 01:56 PM

[Colin]

the older I get, the more injustice I see in the world and the more I want our governments to do something about it -

funny isn't that the problems western civilizations faced 2,000 years ago still plague us today - are we making any progress?

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Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing!

[TBrennan]

Keith---Well I must apologize to any Southerners whom I offended but I was referring to Mississippi's poor educational system which is inferior to the excellent one in Michigan which may have failed in Brett's case. I met some nice people in Mississippi and many Chicagoans hail from the Delta country and I mean no slur on the character of modern Mississippians. As to Lincoln's being a Republican mind that the Republicans were originally an anti-slavary party with strong roots in the Old Northwest. In 1876 the Republican Party sold it's soul when it abandoned the Southern Blacks to Jim Crow in order to gain the Presidency, the party is much changed from that of Lincoln who was most certainly a moderate Liberal, the Conservatives of the time being Copperhead Democrats and those in rebellion against The United States.

This message has been edited by TBrennan on 07-13-2002 at 03:14 PM

[forresthump2]

Boy this Brennan Hoffa Clown does sure eat a lot of Crow. LOL Being a Libby Union Hack has its Costs. LOL The Libbies are in for a big eye opener come elections in 02 and 04. MUHAHAHA

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Go Forth and Hump the World

[lne937s]

I agree that the president does not have that much direct effect over the economy. However- he is very important to economic success.

No matter how much we try, people do not respond like equations to economic factors. Economics is widely refered to as the "dismal science" for a reason. Especailly in the current economy- perception is key. You could say that we live in a Post-Industrial, Post Modern economy.

Why else would Amazon post a 60,000% increase in stock prices in the 90's without ever turning a profit. Why do people think Bo$e is worth the money they pay for it. Why do people pay $60 for designer cologne when the bottle often costs more than the ingredients and the designer has nothing to do with it other than liscensing out his/her name. In politics, it has become easier to convince the majority that there is no problem than to fix it (Eg.- the "Health Care Crisis", At one point polls showed that 84% supported some form of national health care- Bob Dole even proposed a plan. A year and $2 billion+ of medical industry PR and Advertising later, 78% opposed. $2billlion+ is a lot of money, but far less costly than fixing the perceived problem!)

With the value of products and services leaving their raw materials far behind, perception is key. Economic influences are taking effect exponentially faster than before. The ability of the President to inspire confidence and instantly adapt policy to economic changes is absolutely key. We need new thinking for these new times- industrial or agrarian-based models won't work. I don't think Bush is the man for this time.

Social Security is troubling, but seniors have too much political power. And all of you should see how much we pay in taxes here and how far our money goes- then you'd stop whining.

And the Michigan "coney island" idea is dismal. Nathan's should raise an army and wipe them off the face of the earth. The Coney Island Cyclones (I love minor league baseball) could probably do it armed with baseball bats.

And Forrest- 2004 is too far off to call. I have called the margin of victory for the past 3 presidential elections within 1/10th of a percent 2 years out (for '92 I guessed the anominous Dem- I wasn't sure who was running)- but I am boggled now. Things are in too much flux. If Bush can successfully drag out the "war on terrorism" long enough, he will come out ahead. However, his popularity peaked too high too fast on the basis of events that had nothing to do with him. He has made some major policy errors, is in a difficult environment, and has some skeletons in his closet. He is not an idiot, but he is also not the smartest man for the job. Remember Forrest- forget the other 1459days- election day is the only day that counts, and your opinion is definitely not representitive of the majority of the country

more to think about

best wishes to all.

Larry

[T2K]

Tom, no offense taken. Just wanted to clarify that, in my experience, Mississippian's generally are not as greedy as some here appear to be. As far as their education system goes, perhaps they should try the Governor of Alabama's solution: if we can't educate them, we'll get them an $80,000 a year job building Mercedes.

Keith

[BLOOMIS914]

Larry- First off, I appreciate your lengthy response up until the point where you claim I'm spouting off "partisan dogma". I am not a pissed off conservative, just conservative on most issues. I believe in a free market (business with minimal government intervention), basic supply and demand principles and that education is critical to anyone's success.

Larry/TBrennan--It's very charitable of you to believe in/vote for minimal wage increase(s) but history has shown that when it comes time to pay more for the goods or services you desire, that most people will choose the business with the most competitive PRICES, NOT the business that pays the best wage.....Do you base car-buying decisions based on union vs. non-union employees, or more specifically the MFR that pays it's employees most??? I didn't think so. When minimum wage is increased it is very simple COSTS/PRICES GO UP and the average Joe gets it in the pocketbook.

Whether you are buying a sandwich or whatever, the point I was making is very simple....DON'T READ IN TO IT....Quite simply I believe in smaller government and less government interaction in business and in our daily lives...On the other hand I also believe in...are you ready for this one, hang on to your hats, PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY. This goes for everything from abiding by the law, to looking for, finding and keeping a job, to education and quite simply, TAKING OWNERSHIP OF ONE'S FUTURE AND THE RESPONSIBILITY TO DO MORE, TRY HARDER AND always ask more of yourself and those around you instead of looking for excuses or people to blame/sue for life's "bad cards". Which most of the time is the net result(s) of a lot of poor decisions.

Come on guys, stick to issues not EMOTIONS.

I do agree Amway is the biggest scam and fraud that is allowed to exist in the US business culture.

Ted Turner- What a nut-job....Not even worth addressing

Bill Gates- The American Dream personified and if the Government gets their way they will find them guilty of anti-trust and every other business law they can find. Microsoft almost single-handedly provided the economic boom we had for the last 10 years. as they allowed companies to reduce costs, inventories and speed up orders and information transfer.

Guys, don't take anything personal as I don't think I attacked anyone on this forum personally about their education or otherwise. BTW, Coney Islands are restaurants here in Metro-Detroit, this was not a reference to anything or business in Coney Island New York where the name came from.

OK now, flame away, just don't be emotional and base things on real issues and facts.

I like the part about the Cliche's, nice argument, but really what did you disageee with??

One final thought that my boss preaches is this: "No matter how much you are doing, you can always do more and no matter how little you are doing, you can always do less" Think about it.....Which side of the fence do you sit on? I wish everyone asked that question of themselves everyday and answered honestly.

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This message has been edited by BLOOMIS914 on 07-13-2002 at 11:28 PM

[T2K]

I want to be paid $30 an hour and I want everyone else to be paid $2 an hour.

Keith

[anarchist]

Personal Accountability???!!!!WTF? You would immediately put 75% of the lawyers in this country out of business. Wonderful method for improving the economy don't you think?

I believe the Bill of Rights has been amended to include the statement 'There will be no personal accountability' and applies whether or not you are a US citizen.

Keith, you got it. Now I need to take 90% of that in taxes so I can fund some programs to help out those unable to afford housing, food, or medical care.

For those who take things too seriously, the post above is laced with sarcasm so don't get too riled up.

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HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere

Audio - Heresy, KG4

[Deang]

This thread is a riot.

Kelly has me rolling, and Tom's wit is as cutting as ever.

Larry makes some very good points and I learned a few things.

Since I have NO education regarding things economic, I won't embarrass myself by giving an opinion.

I will only say that as a left leaning conservative, I believe the United States government has an obligation to protect us from unethical business practices, and environmental abuses.

On a another note: I think Bush is terrible. A complete embarrassment.

Will either party ever push someone forward who has a full complement of chromosomes?

f>

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Deanf>s>

Klipsch RF7s - AE-25 DJH - AE-3 DJH - Sony 9000ES

f>s>

[rowooo]

I suggest Shawn Hannity!!!

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2 Channel System:

Klipsch Epic CF-2s

McIntosh C-15 Preamplifier

Adcom GFA 5500 Amplifier

Music Hall MMF-5 Table

Adcom GCD 700 CD

Adcom ACE-515 AC Enhancer

Transparent Audio Cabless>

[boa12]

how we ever going to get good candidates anymore w/ all the bashing they get these days? the political bs seems much worse these days. & to the detriment of the country, i.e., more counterproductive than constructive.

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My Home Systems Page

This message has been edited by boa12 on 07-15-2002 at 01:15 PM

[imel96]

i guess it takes an outsider to appreciate the greatness of usa. and i put my money in my mouth (still smiling even when it's down 16% now).

i don't know about democrat vs. republic. if mr. greenspan happy, i'm happy. maybe it sucks, but it's worse outside the usa. think of people in two seasons country, where people can be poor enough they don't have to have warm clothing.

although, 1 usd == 1 euro, could be a problem. but hey, now i can buy more american stuff!

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imel

[lne937s]

Brett,

The conservative dogma comment was directed at everyone, not just you.

As far as minimum wage goes- if you carefully read my post, you'll see what I'm talking about. I was giving an argument for raising the minimum wage as an incentive for employers to move their mindless labor to overseas sweatshops- "GLOBAL EMPIRIALISM", an ultra-conservative notion that has merits and demerits. This LOWERS prices- look at how expensive TV's were in real dollars (controlling for inflation) when they were still made in America. It also provides the opportunity to virtually eliminate the need for uneducated, empoverished labor in this country by moving these jobs overseas. If properly planned with adequate education- this will lead the majority of people in this country to higher-status, intelligence requiring jobs. This is similar to the Economies of the Roman, Spanish, and English empires, but done through economic rather than military means.

There is one thing to remember- economic growth is nothing more than money moving. Here is a hypothetical example of the relevance of economic growth- if there was a tax exemption for autograph sales, we gathered the 100 richest people in a room, and had them sell their autographs to each other for their net worth all day with the undersatnding that they would all end with the same amount as they started- we could easily double our GDP in a few days. However, the impact of this to the average American is non-existant.

Taxes and government regulations ensure that money moves through areas it may not if the markets are left alone. This doesn't mean we dump it into a black whole, never to return- poor people and the government programs spend that money. From my experience, most poor people spend their money faster than they can make it. This money being spent creates jobs just like the money being spent by corporations. If the money being redistributed is excessive this can cause inflation. Likewise, if corporate budgets are inflated you also get inflation. In addition, the long-term effects of inadequate government programs (uneducated population, social unrest, environmental destruction, etc.) can have much greater effects on the economy. It is all one big balancing act.

Brett- I have a feeling that your boss is promoting his own self interest, rather than the best interest of this country. The same could be said for the people seeking out government programs.

One factor I find interesting is the ratio of education to money made. Typically people who are extreemely educated but poorly paid tend to be liberal (college professors). However, the uneducated that make a lot of money are almost always conservative (good old boy businessmen). The people in the middle (high pay-high education and low pay-low education) are less predictable. I remember in grad school some research on the ratio of education to pay as an indicator, but I can't rember where- does anybody out there remember the author?

There is one thing to keep in mind- everything is reliant on perception. There are no stead fast rules, no matter how much we wish there were. Virtually every aspect of our economy is based on assigned rather than actual value. Many of the products we buy have value based on aesthetic appeal rather than function. This appeal can changes with the perception of the people. Even money has little value other than that which we assign to it. In the end, if you get enough people to unquestioningly believe in a system, you can make it work. There are many different paths to the same conclusion- some better than others. Fascism (by definition, government derived from corporate structure- see Principale di Fascista Larry

[boa12]

larry, excuse me but your example on money velocity is a load of crapola. to be valid it would mean the world has come to an end (see your words:at the end).

this is why i don't like politics on here anymore than a salesman pushing his wares on here. after all, you did this thread in the 1st place to push your political agenda on an audio/video board. of this i am now sure.

i'd warn folks that they look out for those who really have a hidden agenda besides just pleasant talk or helping each other. i for one will not converse w/ anybody that starts a grossly unrelated topic thread on here again. & that will go for all topics thereafter.

let's stamp out this bs.

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My Home Systems Page