Economy- about to really hit the fan?

[lne937s]

Boa

My original post did not go through- which is probably a good thing.

First of all, the money moving concept is more precisely a measure of GDP (Gross Domestic Product) - the #1 way we measure the economy. Increase in GDP in real terms is economic growth. Money moving from buyer to seller, investor to investment, government to worker, etc., is considered income, one way to measue GDP. There are also other ways to measure economic success pertaining to how it impacts the population, but they are not as favorable to America as GDP. The money in your pocket has probably passed through millions of peoples hands before it reaches you, in effect rather than physical form. This money does not have to reach everyone to generate growth. Remember the George H. W. Bush solution to the '90's recession- "buy something". Keeping money moving from buyer to seller, investor to business, etc. is what our economy is defined by.

I also want to say that I have no agenda, other than to make people think. Some of the references made are obscure or theoretical. Many of the references I have made here are contradictory- if you stop to notice. I am really trying to entice some intelligent responses out of people of different areas, classes, education, and political beliefs. I realize that many people tend to hate what they don't know or understand- I am not trying to make people hate me.

one word of advise:

Think before you say "BS," or that is what your opinion will be.

Larry

This message has been edited by lne937s on 07-15-2002 at 07:49 PM

[skonopa]

Larry said:

Remember the George H. W. Bush solution to the '90's recession- "buy something".

Well, I guess I did my part in helping the economy recover by buying this Reference 7 setup

(When in actuallity, I just simply wanted a nice HT/Stereo setup).

------------------

Steven Konopa

Fredericksburg, VA

Denon AVR3802 (Receiver)

RF-7 (Fronts)

RC-7 (Center)

RC-7 (Rear)

RS-7 (A Surrounds)

Infinity RS2000.5 (B Surrounds - recycled)

REL Storm III (Subwoofer 1)

Yamaha YST-SW40 (Subwoofer 2 - Recycled)

JVC XV-S65GD (DVD)

Sharp DX-200 (CD - ancient)

RCA DWD490RE (DirecTV/Ultimate TV receiver)

Sharp 32 inch (TV)

[mike stehr]

Right on Boa, Klipsch Brother!

I'll agree with the ones that feel there is to much Political Yammering on this AUDIO Forum.

Yeah, this is the General Forum, but I think it's getting a little too over-generalized.

Especially the political crap.

I'm sure there is plenty of internet chat rooms that folks can piss and moan about the current U.S situations.

But some could care less.

I work, come home, enjoy my Girlfriend and her Boy.

And my Audio!

And as long as the bills are paid, I could give a sh*t

less about anything else.

I jump on my Favorite Audio Forum to see what's up in Audio, and lately all I read is religeous and political

arguements and blabber.

Pretty Lame.

There is too many people in the World.

Eventually it will all come to a head, and the world will end.

For Humans.

The Meek shall inherit the Earth.

Hit the road, Larry!

[boa12]

larry sorry for being harsher on you than i should have. this stuff started before you even came along.

i've made it a point to not get involved in these topics on this forum any longer. & as you saw i feel strongly about entire threads now starting up that have no relation whatsoever to the mission of this forum. sorry, but i've devoted a lot of my time here & just fear the degradation of a good party.

there are many highly intelligent people here on this forum, but i don't agree its the right venue to discuss politics &/or religion.

& believe you me, i don't need a lecture on macroeconomic theory. not even on an economics forum.

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My Home Systems Page

[BLOOMIS914]

Boa12- You are right on.....I responded against my better judgement........Some things are better left alone. Just like my father told me...."rarely will you convince the other party on any topics/discussions related to politics or religion. So just leave them alone unless with family and even then they can get wild.

Peace out!

I'm going back to surfing for great A/V & HT threads.....

See Ya!

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[T2K]

Every now and then, boa is right.:^)

As Larry said, people are different and have different backgrounds. So what good could come from this discussion other than to drive wedges between friends. Everyone has the opportunity to voice their opinion at the polling booth. This is an audio site, so lets argue about speaker wire or something that really requires intelligence.

Keith

[Curmudgeon]

It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.

- H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard.

- H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right.

- H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

- Lester B. Pearson

Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.

- Ronald Reagan (1911 - )

[cluless]

Got this in my e-mail today

If you had bought $1,000.00 worth of Nortel stock one year ago, it would now be worth $49.00.

With Enron, you would have $16.50 of the original $1,000.00

With Worldcom, you would have less than $5.00 left.

If you had bought $1,000.00 worth of Schlitz (the beer, not the stock) one year ago, drank all the beer, then

sold the aluminum cans for $ .10 a pound , you would have $214.00.

Based on the above, my current investment advice is to drink heavily and recycle.

[fini]

Wow, that Schlitz must be cheap beer (or come in real heavy cans)! Over 2# of aluminum for every dollar spent on beer?

Still, I agree with your conclusion, cluless, even if drinking that much beer was seen as "pissing away" your investment...

fini

This message has been edited by fini on 07-17-2002 at 09:16 AM

[lne937s]

Now here is something that does have a lot to do with audio- shipping costs.

I was reading a New York Times article that gave the details about the UPS contract. This is nuts.

Full time employees in warehouses and drivers- Who currently are making $23.05 an hour are going to get $5 raises to $28.05 an hour. That's almost $60,000 a year!

Part-timers will make $14.50 - $26/hr.

It almost makes me wish I hadn't invested seven years in higher ed (between under grad and grad). If I would have dropped out of high school, got a full time job with UPS at this rate, and lived at the same standard of living, I would have made a net pre-tax gain of HALF A MILLION DOLLARS (combided salary + school costs- not including dividends that would offset the taxes, depending on how it was invested). I am convinced that all of us college educated people who invested in ourselves and make less than the new UPS wage are worth more.

And from the stories I've heard from people who have worked at UPS both here and in Missouri- there is no way in heck they deserve it. The union contracts have allowed the employees to be very lazy and unproductive. At some jobs people move once or twice an hour, and multitasking (the core of any corporate job) is not allowed under the contracts because doing more than one job at the same time might take away someone elses job. You should hear some of the stories about the MO night shift playing soccer with packages- and you wonder why your shipment gets damaged?

This is nuts. Unions have their place, but there is no way that these employees deserve this kind of money- especially in this economy. A living wage- yes. An individual wage almost twice the median per capita for fairly unskilled labor- heck no!

This affects all of us- we will end up paying the bill. Even if you don't ship it yourself, the price of products that are shipped or have shipped components will go up. This pertains to audio especially.

I know you guys hate these non-audio threads, but this is important.

Larry

This message has been edited by lne937s on 07-17-2002 at 09:51 AM

[T2K]

Hey Larry, go do the uneducated labor for a few years and report back. Why not spend you're time brainstorming as to how you can improve your position in life rather than sticking your nose into other peoples business. I'm quite sure you earn you're living sitting on your ***. I wish I had you working with myself for a few months.

I'll agree with you that you made a poor investment, investing in yourself, it appears you're still not very smart. Why not carry your crap somewhere else?

Keith (Union guy)

[forresthump2]

""i know i have to do my job". "i know that's part of the game" - (Tom Daschle on CNBC Yesterday).

MUHAHAHA. Talk about a Freudian Slip. LOL Now is this duffus a Statesman? LOL

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Go Forth and Hump the World

[BLOOMIS914]

Tom Daschle and Big Dick Gephardt are Communists/Socialists trying to overrun the democratic party.

These guys are so far wacked/left they are actually funny. The part that scares me is that a lot of uneducated/unmotivated victims/people endorse them because if they get their way there will be a government program that will allow everyone to stay home and do nothing while getting paid for it.

I heard that comment and thought the same thing!

Larry----You want to talk Unions come to Detroit and I'll personally walk you through automotive assembly plants where hi-lo drivers make over $65,000 per year, get double-time over 40 hours and Triple time on Holidays. Now, Keith don't jump me, but I believe Unions do stand for some good things but the automotive industry is way out of hand.

This is why, as Ross Perot said, you here that giant sucking sound going south into Mexico called JOBS. Very basic Supply and Demand principles at work here.

US auto workers will unionize and Demand upwards of $20.00/hour for unskilled labor and Mexican auto workers will line-up and work all day for less than $20.00US.... If you were a business owner or stockholder what would you do??

People need to really wake up here, this is why businesses are folding left and right because we can't compete with costs and labor outside our borders on many products.

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This message has been edited by BLOOMIS914 on 07-17-2002 at 10:37 PM

[T2K]

Brett(Larry's buddy)said:

"Larry----You want to talk Unions come to Detroit and I'll personally walk you through automotive assembly plants where hi-lo drivers make over $65,000 per year, get double-time over 40 hours and Triple time on Holidays. Now, Keith don't jump me, but I believe Unions do stand for some good things but the automotive industry is way out of hand.

This is why, as Ross Perot said, you here that giant sucking sound going south into Mexico called JOBS. Very basic Supply and Demand principles at work here.

US auto workers will unionize and Demand upwards of $20.00/hour for unskilled labor and Mexican auto workers will line-up and work all day for less than $20.00US.... If you were a business owner or stockholder what would you do?

People need to really wake up here, this is why businesses are folding left and right because we can't compete with costs and labor outside our borders on many products."

Brett, if it's so good ,why don't you get in there and get some of that easy money yourself? Have you ever actually worked those assembly lines yourself? I'll bet not. Apparently you've walked thru the work area and observed others working though. I'm not going to defend or comment on those jobs in Detroit because I have absolutely no first hand knowledge/experience there. I do know that Alabama is slowly becoming Detroit-like as Mercedes/Honda/Toyota/Hyundai are moving here/operating here now. I know people that work on assembly lines that are EARNING $80,000 year. NON-UNION too.

If I were a business owner I would hire good people that wanted to work and I would realize that they were human beings and treat them as such. If they did not perform I would kick their asses out and find someone else that fit my critera. I would tell them that if we all kept our minds on our own jobs and performed then we all, inculding my business, would succeed. I would not pay myself 500 times the amount that the average wage earner in my business earned, as many CEO's are now paid. That is the giant sucking sound that you refer to. We know what the stockholders did. They lost their asses as the CEO's received giant rewards based on hypotheical company performance. WAKE UP AMERICA indeed!

I'm sure that somewhere there is a Mexican that would love to work(sic) your job Brett for less than half of your earnings. Think about how your company and those stockholders would benefit. After you've lost your job Brett you can find yourself one of those low paying jobs and try to support yourself and your family on those low wages that you believe others should earn.

It is the job of our government, as is my Union Officers, to look out for our best interests. Some perform better than others. Reward those that perform. Remove those that do not(vote).

Keith

This message has been edited by talktoKeith on 07-18-2002 at 10:48 AM

[lne937s]

Keith

I did work manual labor to pay my way through 7 years of higher ed and to save up for college. I worked on landscaping and hod carrying for a brick layer in addition to stocking groceries, waiting tables, and filming football video in the off season. Comparing myself to a couple of friends who worked UPS nights- I guarantee I worked harder. One actually quit because he was frustrated with how amazingly inefficient they were.

From my experience, manual labor is much less stressful.

As for why I do what I do- sometimes I really have to think about it. Part of me does it because I invested so much time and energy in getting where I am. The other is the promise of being able to move up to a much higher level than I would otherwise. I also have learned so much that I feel useless if I can't apply it- I know I am making a positive contribution. However, when I see the amount of profits my section produces and what I get paid, and then look at money-loosing American auto manufactures' employees with unrealistic salaries- it makes me sick.

UPS will end up raising prices to compensate for these inflated wages- which will raise the market price for all shipping. This will inflate prices of almost everything we buy because amost everything has some shipped components.

How easy will it be to keep America on the cutting edge of technology if high school kids see people making more money without studying, building up student loans, or living in relative poverty while going to college? America needs to move forward rather than entrenching itself in industrial-age economics.

The only benefit I can see to these high pay rates for unskilled labor is that maybe this will convince manufacturers to replace people with machines- which will drive down prices. Maybe the American manufacturing jobs moving south isn't that bad of a thing.

American Auto industry makes me sick. One government bailout after another. Tax breaks for plants so that the uneducated in a community can have good paying jobs. They rarely turn a profit- It is almost like a welfare program. No union training in how to make a car. And American cars are horrible- most people buy them out of blind patriotism. I have to give Bill Ford credit- he is closing money losing plants and redisigning everything by Europeans. However, the once-greatness of American automobiles is over and the decline will continue as long as antiquated thinking persists.

Why do some enrtrenched industries keep getting government money while the ones that move us forward are being left out?

US Unions and CEOs are both corrupt with overinflated incomes. Either way, they suck money out of this economy. Whether it is a corporate handout of a government one, there really isn't much difference- we all have to pay for it.

Larry

[T2K]

What do you think of the uneducated American farmer? Do you place a higher value on his education,or lack thereof, or whatever his uneducated labor produces?

In the event of a great catastrophic incident, which people would you expect to see laying dead at the entrance to a now closed grocery store? (a) Those highly educated that are unable to actually produce a tangible product, or ( those uneducated people that are able to grow the food in your mouth?

Ever seen one of those old movies where a couple of guys settle their differences with handguns? You take your shot and miss. He takes his shot and puts a hole in your forehead the size of a golf ball. You read about guns and the process involved in their manufacture while in college. You wallow in your own self esteem about your education/knowledge of handguns.Your opponent cannot read but was raised with a gun in his hand. Which background do you place the most real value on. Daniel Boones's, or your dead self's?

Keith

[Gregorius]

This thread reminds me of a Boss I once had when I worked in a factory. His philosophy was that unless you had a college degree you were nothing but a worker bee, and did not deserve to make more than $5 an hour. I guess he never realized that without us "worker bees" he would not have a job. It was enough for me to look at other options for employment, so I applied for and was accepted into the Plumbers and Steamfitters. Let me tell you anyone that says that Union plumbers are just fat, lazy guys with their buttcracks exposed has never worked a day in the trade. Try moving 72,000 lb chillers into a mechanical room on rollers with come-alongs. Even though I am now into project management I still hold my journeyman's card and there are some days that I would rather be sweating copper.

Never take for granted the worker bees the job you may save may be your own. Maybe I should try to get a job at UPS.

Regards

[lne937s]

The individual American farmer is becoming more and more of a minority and a cultural myth. The majority of the food grown is made in corporate farms- look at Tyson chicken plants.

On the guns analogy- remember someone had to be smart enough to design and engineer the gun, or else you would be fighting with sticks and rocks.

And while your at it, why don't you use cave drawings to communicate and make your own music?

There is a value to education- it moves our society forward. We learn from the past and develop the future. Mindless labor jobs merely take advantage of where we are now.

I have to say that I think Corporate wages are too high also. But two wrongs don't make a right.

Airline pilots should make more than $100,000 if UPS employees are making $60,000. They have hundreds of lives in their hands, actually went to school, , and are essential to an important industry.

The wages in this country should go up. However, the value of the employees should also go up. If you are doing something a machine can do better, you should be replaced. Eventually, this will become a reality and where will our economy be then? Even the existing manual jobs will be made infinitely easier by premanufactured components and improved machinery.

Unions are Just as corrupt as corporations, although neither one wants to admit it.

I am not a communist and I think that if you invest in something you should gain returns. This goes for work as well as finances. If someone invests the time, effort, and money into getting a college degree, they should have a significant return. There should be a contrast to encourage the development of this country.

I still believe there is a value in highly skilled labor- like some cabinet builders and machinists. However, bolt screwers or warehouse employees do not deserve to make $60K- asking for more money in the middle of an economic downturn.

The whole phenomenon is one facet of a larger issue- the outdated way American industry works. Our wealth of natural resources and overconsumption have made us lazy- we need a swift kick in the pants. Technology is moving ahead whether we like it or not. The money loosing, government supported US auto industry can't last for ever- Ford's cuts might not go far enough.

Think of it this way- Japan is currently the #1 producer of steel but it has no iron deposites- all of the raw materials are recycled or imported. On the other hand America has a wealth of iron. Japan ended up ahead because they worked smarter. In America, greedy bosses, union-imposed inefficiency, and outdated thinking brought the industry down. Do you want the rest of America to go the way of US Steel?

Maybe we need a Depression to convince everyone to scrap the old system and start over. Maybe people won't realize the error in their ways untill it's too late- our stubborness will may be our downfall. Which would you prefer- a slow, painful decline or a quick blow and then start over?

Larry

PS- one thing I did learn to do in college is to discuss issues without personal attacks- let's try to keep this an adult conversation.

This message has been edited by lne937s on 07-18-2002 at 05:23 PM

[anarchist]

In any case, the American worker gets screwed. We get screwed by the Unions. We get screwed by the government. We get screwed by the corporations. We get screwed by the small businessman. We get screwed by the rich and we get screwed by the poor.

It is just one big f**kfest. Get used to it because it ain't gonna change.

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HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere

Audio - Heresy, KG4

[T2K]

Hey Crash!

Is that why they call us the working pwhore?

Keith